Conservation - NCS or PCGS?

[cmorg-migration]

Are there opinions regarding which service is best for coin conservation? NCS or PCGS? I've considered sending test coins to each service to gain some comparison but will appreciate any thoughts here. Does one company handle copper coins better than the other? Of imminent concern to me is an 1857 Flying Eagle that I purchased red from my dealer several years ago, which he said was one of the finest he'd seen. I made the mistake of placing it in my type album and now it's not as red, so I'd like to have it stabilized and slabbed. My thought has been NCS because they've been at it awhile, but I've not yet tried either service. Thanks in advance for any advice or thoughts on this.

[bsshog40]

I'm not sure of pcgs's service but I have seen great results from ncs.

[Tyler N.]

Haven't used PCGS for conservation, but I have used NCS twice. They removed some green "gunk" off of two coins I submitted. The first was a Seated quarter that came back looking almost polished and shiny (the coin had to have been dipped a long time ago, maybe several times, and once NCS "did their thing" with it, it uncovered an ugly surface - not their fault by any means. The other was a 1823/2 large cent that they did an excellent job with. It already had porous surfaces so it came back VF details. On both occasions, NCS did what I asked them to do and I was pleased.

[physics-fan3.14]

I've only used NCS once (and didn't actually know PCGS had this service). NCS was able to clean some spotting/haziness/ugliness off a Mexican Peso that I sent them, and it went from a 64PL to a 65PL on regrading. They did a fantastic job.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I've tried both and they both appear to do their best. I have heard good things about the PCGS system in the last year since they started.

[KeyMan64]

BEFORE: With my bad photography at the time. The coin looked like it may have been dipped at one time and then never properly rinsed. I knew this was something I could have fixed just as well by using MS70 and then actually rinsing it properly but I had no desire to risk the grades or FB designation etc....with my luck something bad would have happened so I let them handle it. It had a thin film over the coin, tan-ish in color and then you see the tan turning into a couple of black spots.

 

AFTER: And with my better lighting and better photography etc. All tan-ish stuff removed, black areas made a little smaller and neutralized so they will not worsen. The coin looks much better!

[mkman123]

nice one keyman, which service?

[KeyMan64]

nice one keyman, which service?

PCGS.

[GoldFinger1969]

Nice job....do they have a set price for this service ?

 

Also, do I take it the coin -- even in the much-better looking appearance after the cleaning -- had the same rating BEFORE and AFTER ? MS65

[GoldFinger1969]

BEFORE: With my bad photography at the time. The coin looked like it may have been dipped at one time and then never properly rinsed. I knew this was something I could have fixed just as well by using MS70 and then actually rinsing it properly but I had no desire to risk the grades or FB designation etc....with my luck something bad would have happened so I let them handle it. It had a thin film over the coin, tan-ish in color and then you see the tan turning into a couple of black spots.

 

(1) Any idea what it may have been dipped in ?

 

(2) If you use something like MS70 -- or do anything that involves a subsequent rub/wipe/etc. -- doesn't that risk showing up and making the coin un-gradeable if you submit it ? I take it that is why 'dipping' may take place: no rubbing or drying, just a dunk in some special fluid ?

 

Still learning about this, sorry for the newbie level of the questions....

[KeyMan64]

Nice job....do they have a set price for this service ?

 

Also, do I take it the coin -- even in the much-better looking appearance after the cleaning -- had the same rating BEFORE and AFTER ? MS65

Yes, same grade. Once some of the crud was removed it revealed a couple of extra small marks. Luster was improved big time but the additional small marks evened it out...so, yes, same grade. This page and form provides the details.

[GoldFinger1969]

Nice job....do they have a set price for this service ?Also, do I take it the coin -- even in the much-better looking appearance after the cleaning -- had the same rating BEFORE and AFTER ? MS65

Yes, same grade. Once some of the crud was removed it revealed a couple of extra small marks. Luster was improved big time but the additional small marks evened it out...so, yes, same grade. This page and form provides the details.

That's amazing when you think about it. Imagine a brand new Ferrari covered in dirt and mud and then someone being asked about the paint job and finish BEFORE it was cleaned of that stuff.

 

While there were no abrasions and cuts or nicks that changed with the cleaning, you would think that there would have been a change in rating just based on luster/shine/etc. But I guess not.

 

It's like they saw through it on the initial rating.

[Hard Times]

I have used NCS for about a dozen coins and tokens over the years. What I like about them is their caution. They don't take any risks on conserving your coin, if they feel there is any chance that the conservation won't work, they don't and err on the side of caution. Hence, some coins I have sent in were sent back without being touched. I appreciate their integrity and careful approach. The examples they did conserve came out splendid.

 

Best, HT

[Nutmeg Coin]

For me the issue would come down to an economic one. You are looking at 5% of your declared value with NGC plus grading fees, etc.; PCGS charges 4% of their price guide plus a grading fee. In the $100 to low thousands conservation/restoration makes sense in some cases but not in many others. If you post the potential conservation candidate here will you get the right answer? Very likely. But as you move up the $$$ valuation from the thousands to $5K, $10K, $20K and beyond the temptation for the conservation/restoration company to go ahead when they should leave well enough alone becomes much greater. A case in point; a wealthy show dealer had a high relief Saint in MS62 with a minor issue on the reverse, he said that if you just addressed that issue, the coin would 63. I sent it into conservation and they went ahead without communicating. The work reduced the coin in value, not increased with a washed out look. I showed it to the dealer subsequently and he was most upset, but there was no recourse.

 

My advice is get several valued opinions before you send coins in to conservation/restoration.

[KeyMan64]

What was the really expensive Morgan Dollar that was totally stripped to blast white and left absolutely lifeless with no luster? Who did that one?

 

EDIT: Found the info...

 

1893-S NGC MS67 Norweb/Jack Lee 2 *AFTER PHOTOS*

 

Here is an article I found about it.

[PerryHall]

What was the really expensive Morgan Dollar that was totally stripped to blast white and left absolutely lifeless with no luster? Who did that one?

 

EDIT: Found the info...

 

1893-S NGC MS67 Norweb/Jack Lee 2 *AFTER PHOTOS*

 

Here is an article I found about it.

 

Who did the conservation on that coin.

[cmorg-migration]

Nice job....do they have a set price for this service ?

 

Also, do I take it the coin -- even in the much-better looking appearance after the cleaning -- had the same rating BEFORE and AFTER ? MS65

Yes, same grade. Once some of the crud was removed it revealed a couple of extra small marks. Luster was improved big time but the additional small marks evened it out...so, yes, same grade. This page and form provides the details.

 

Thanks for sharing your before and after photos. The conservation certainly made the coin look much nicer. Do you think it's some magic formula they use or do they use the same chemicals commercially available? You mentioned MS70, which I thought I read leaves a coin looking polished. That's a look I don't like.

[cmorg-migration]

For me the issue would come down to an economic one. You are looking at 5% of your declared value with NGC plus grading fees, etc.; PCGS charges 4% of their price guide plus a grading fee. In the $100 to low thousands conservation/restoration makes sense in some cases but not in many others. If you post the potential conservation candidate here will you get the right answer? Very likely. But as you move up the $$$ valuation from the thousands to $5K, $10K, $20K and beyond the temptation for the conservation/restoration company to go ahead when they should leave well enough alone becomes much greater. A case in point; a wealthy show dealer had a high relief Saint in MS62 with a minor issue on the reverse, he said that if you just addressed that issue, the coin would 63. I sent it into conservation and they went ahead without communicating. The work reduced the coin in value, not increased with a washed out look. I showed it to the dealer subsequently and he was most upset, but there was no recourse.

 

My advice is get several valued opinions before you send coins in to conservation/restoration.

 

Thanks for everyone's input on this. What a great point you make, Nutmeg, regarding the value of the coin before conservation as well as the tales of conservation gone wrong. My Flying Eagle isn't very expensive, but it's a coin that I want to keep and it's losing color rapidly in the Dansco. I'll try inserting the images now. Unfortunately, I seem to have been so excited to add the coin to my album that I didn't take a before shot. At any rate, I'm not finding one in my photos.

 

 

 

[KeyMan64]

What was the really expensive Morgan Dollar that was totally stripped to blast white and left absolutely lifeless with no luster? Who did that one?

 

EDIT: Found the info...

 

1893-S NGC MS67 Norweb/Jack Lee 2 *AFTER PHOTOS*

 

Here is an article I found about it.

 

Who did the conservation on that coin.

Many people believe that it would not be in an NGC holder with a MS67 grade had they not been the ones that did the work.

[cmorg-migration]

 

I think this does it. Any help for it through conservation?

 

 

[KeyMan64]

Nice job....do they have a set price for this service ?

 

Also, do I take it the coin -- even in the much-better looking appearance after the cleaning -- had the same rating BEFORE and AFTER ? MS65

Yes, same grade. Once some of the crud was removed it revealed a couple of extra small marks. Luster was improved big time but the additional small marks evened it out...so, yes, same grade. This page and form provides the details.

 

Thanks for sharing your before and after photos. The conservation certainly made the coin look much nicer. Do you think it's some magic formula they use or do they use the same chemicals commercially available? You mentioned MS70, which I thought I read leaves a coin looking polished. That's a look I don't like.

I have used MS70 for years. MS70 is not a dip (acidic solution). It is a detergent that does not hurt the metal and just removes dirt and grime from the surface of a coin. I only use it on Mid-Upper Mint State silver coins that you are certain still have fantastic luster underneath whatever might be on the coin. When I was learning with the product 10-15 years ago...if I used it on a slider coin where the gunk had eaten through the luster then ...once you use it, all of the grime is removed but then you have flat gray areas where it is clear that the luster was impaired. The product is called MS70, not VF20, let that be your guide. I have used this product on many Mint State silver coins with Q-Tip to move the liquid around (not to scrub) and then rinsed them well and carefully patted/air dried. The coins have graded perfectly at PCGS and look great many years later without issue.

 

Based on my experience, I am confident I could have have accomplished the same results as PCGS but since it was a tied Top Pop variety I was not willing to risk the top pop status so I let them do the work. It cost me ~$100 total last fall. They did a fine job and I am happy with the results. The brown stuff is gone and will not turn black. The black spot issues have been minimized and neutralized so they will not get worse. The luster is fantastic.

 

In regards to using MS70 on copper, I do not have experience in this realm. There are rumors that it will cause copper to tone blue-ish. I say that is FALSE when you use the product properly! Silver/Copper/Whatever...you MUST RINSE THE STUFF OFF VERY WELL!!! If you do then you should not have any issues based on what I know.

 

Edit: Use rubber chemical gloves as it will damage your skin.

 

Hope that helps.

[cmorg-migration]

Nice job....do they have a set price for this service ?

 

Also, do I take it the coin -- even in the much-better looking appearance after the cleaning -- had the same rating BEFORE and AFTER ? MS65

Yes, same grade. Once some of the crud was removed it revealed a couple of extra small marks. Luster was improved big time but the additional small marks evened it out...so, yes, same grade. This page and form provides the details.

 

Thanks for sharing your before and after photos. The conservation certainly made the coin look much nicer. Do you think it's some magic formula they use or do they use the same chemicals commercially available? You mentioned MS70, which I thought I read leaves a coin looking polished. That's a look I don't like.

I have used MS70 for years. MS70 is not a dip (acidic solution). It is a detergent that does not hurt the metal and just removes dirt and grime from the surface of a coin. I only use it on Mid-Upper Mint State silver coins that you are certain still have fantastic luster underneath whatever might be on the coin. When I was learning with the product 10-15 years ago...if I used it on a slider coin where the gunk had eaten through the luster then ...once you use it, all of the grime is removed but then you have flat gray areas where it is clear that the luster was impaired. The product is called MS70, not VF20, let that be your guide. I have used this product on many Mint State silver coins with Q-Tip to move the liquid around (not to scrub) and then rinsed them well and carefully patted/air dried. The coins have graded perfectly at PCGS and look great many years later without issue.

 

Based on my experience, I am confident I could have have accomplished the same results as PCGS but since it was a tied Top Pop variety I was not willing to risk the top pop status so I let them do the work. It cost me ~$100 total last fall. They did a fine job and I am happy with the results. The brown stuff is gone and will not turn black. The black spot issues have been minimized and neutralized so they will not get worse. The luster is fantastic.

 

In regards to using MS70 on copper, I do not have experience in this realm. There are rumors that it will cause copper to tone blue-ish. I say that is FALSE when you use the product properly! Silver/Copper/Whatever...you MUST RINSE THE STUFF OFF VERY WELL!!! If you do then you should not have any issues based on what I know.

 

Edit: Use rubber chemical gloves as it will damage your skin.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Thank you for this explanation. I need to recall the book I read several years ago with a chapter that described cleaning and conservation, and re-read it. I think it was by Q. David Bowers. I don't think I'll be experimenting with the chemicals although I did once give some coins a soap and water bath. They had belonged to a relative, were in a falling apart whitman folder, and were filthy. As far as I know they're worth their silver value, but it still felt wrong! I'll have to leave good coin cleaning to the experts.

[jpcienkus]

I think this does it. Any help for it through conservation?

 

 

 

Based on your photos, I think your coin is toning quite nicely. I'm not sure I would mess with it.

[KeyMan64]

I think this does it. Any help for it through conservation?

 

Based on your photos, I think your coin is toning quite nicely. I'm not sure I would mess with it.

I don't see anything that is a real "PROBLEM or DANGER" to the coin. I would not do anything with it. If you do not like it, I would sell it and buy an example that you do like. Good Luck! (thumbs u

[oih82w8]

That FE looks beautiful in my opinion! "...speaking words of wisdom, Let it be!"