$20 St. Gaudens Wells Fargo

[JIM F.]

Do the Wells Fargo St. Gaudens command any premium these days?

 

 

[zboyle04]

i think they are so plentiful that they do not, but perhaps a ms67 or 68 example might bring a premium

[MarkFeld]

i think they are so plentiful that they do not, but perhaps a ms67 or 68 example might bring a premium

 

 

They would not command a premium, as they constitute a very large percentage of the examples which have received those grades.

[GoldFinger1969]

Haven't seen any at the auction houses or Ebay, what are they going for in the MS65 range ?

[MarkFeld]

Haven't seen any at the auction houses or Ebay, what are they going for in the MS65 range ?

 

Two MS65's sold in auction for $1997 each, earlier this month.

[JIM F.]

Haven't seen any at the auction houses or Ebay, what are they going for in the MS65 range ?

 

Two MS65's sold in auction for $1997 each, earlier this month.

 

Mark, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that higher than a non-WF MS-65?

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Mark, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that higher than a non-WF MS-65?

 

Mark knows better than me but I would guess that's 'in the ballpark' or maybe about 5% above the retail price for most common year Saints, no ?

[messydesk]

The WF coins are quite plentiful and are mostly, if not all, common dates that are widely available (except for the super high grades). There is no reason for a premium for this pedigree. Care must be taken to view several coins in the assigned grade and buy the one that represents the best value. From what I've seen, which I will grant is a small sample, I would be more likely to buy a non-WF coin.

[JIM F.]

The WF coins are quite plentiful and are mostly, if not all, common dates that are widely available (except for the super high grades). There is no reason for a premium for this pedigree. Care must be taken to view several coins in the assigned grade and buy the one that represents the best value. From what I've seen, which I will grant is a small sample, I would be more likely to buy a non-WF coin.

 

Messy - the WF Saints were only 1 year. The 1908 NM.

 

 

[messydesk]

My mistake. I thought there were other years as well.

[FishyOne]

The WF coins are quite plentiful and are mostly, if not all, common dates that are widely available (except for the super high grades). There is no reason for a premium for this pedigree. Care must be taken to view several coins in the assigned grade and buy the one that represents the best value. From what I've seen, which I will grant is a small sample, I would be more likely to buy a non-WF coin.

 

Messy - the WF Saints were only 1 year. The 1908 NM.

 

 

As noted above, no premium at all for WF Saints. The $1997 figure cited reflects as much.

[PerryHall]

I've read in several places that this hoard was graded in a generous manner. Unless you are an expert grader, suggest that you look for one with a CAC sticker if you are buying one of the higher graded coins.

[MarkFeld]

Mark, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that higher than a non-WF MS-65?

 

Mark knows better than me but I would guess that's 'in the ballpark' or maybe about 5% above the retail price for most common year Saints, no ?

 

I agree about "in the ballpark" and would not base a conclusion on just two sales, anyway. In the same auction, a 1927 brought $2115 and a 1923-D brought $1880.

 

There is an should be no premium for Wells Fargo examples - they are the epitome of generic/common.

[JIM F.]

OK Thanks.

 

[RWB]

...plus they had no contemporary association with Wells, Fargo & Co.

[GoldFinger1969]

How do NGC or PCGS verify that something was in an actual Wells Fargo vault for decades ? Or that those Exile Coins were really sewn into a coat and stayed there for 60 years ?

 

[DaveG]

The story of the "Wells Fargo Hoard" is related in Bowers' Double Eagle "Red Book" (A Guide Book of Double Eagle Gold Coins).

 

Briefly, coin dealer Ron Gillio bought a group of 19,900 1908 No Motto Saints in the 1990s. The coins (reportedly) had remained in stable storage together since 1917. (The discussion in the Double Eagle Red Book doesn't say where the coins had been stored since 1917.)

 

After Gillio bought the coins they were subsequently moved and stored in a Wells Fargo branch in Nevada, whose name was later attached to the hoard for marketing purposes.

 

There really isn't any connection between the coins and Wells Fargo.

 

edited for clarity and to add:

 

The approximate breakdown of the grades: MS-68 (10); MS-68 (200+); MS-67 (1,700+) and MS-66 (6,000+), with the balance being MS-65 and below.

 

(I'm not sure why there are two listings for MS-68 coins; that's what's in the book. Perhaps one group of MS-68s was from PCGS and the other is from NGC? However, in the estimated population, Bowers' only lists 11 MS-68s. Perhaps someone can clear this up?)

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Dave....I just skimmed that part of the Red Book, I'm working my way forward and am on the Liberty's right now.

 

Does the book say where the coins were? 19,900 coins all in the same location or retrieved and combined all together ? Big difference, IMO.

 

And I didn't know the Wells Fargo connection was where Gillio stored them AFTER he bought them. To call them Wells Fargo coins in that case is really meaningless. If he had moved them to Antarctica, would they be the Antarctica Hoard ?

 

I may have skimmed or misread or rushed my online reading, but for some reason I thought the coins were all FOUND in a New Mexico Wells Fargo branch.

 

Calling them the Wells Fargo Hoard when they were put there AFTER they were found/gathered/assembled is one of the more deceptive and misleading things I've read about.

[DaveG]

The book doesn't say where the coins were, except to say that they had all been stored together since 1917.

 

My guess is that the coins were stored in one of the more stable Latin American countries (they may have even been in a central bank's vault), since I don't think they would have remained undisturbed through WWII in Europe or Asia and I think it's really, really unlikely they would have remained undisturbed all those years in the US or Canada.

 

I agree with you about the marketing title - even Bowers refers to the coins as the "Wells Fargo" Hoard!

[MarkFeld]

The story of the "Wells Fargo Hoard" is related in Bowers' Double Eagle "Red Book" (A Guide Book of Double Eagle Gold Coins).

 

Briefly, coin dealer Ron Gillio bought a group of 19,900 1908 No Motto Saints in the 1990s. The coins (reportedly) had remained in stable storage together since 1917. (The discussion in the Double Eagle Red Book doesn't say where the coins had been stored since 1917.)

 

After Gillio bought the coins they were subsequently moved and stored in a Wells Fargo branch in Nevada, whose name was later attached to the hoard for marketing purposes.

 

There really isn't any connection between the coins and Wells Fargo.

 

edited for clarity and to add:

 

The approximate breakdown of the grades: MS-68 (10); MS-68 (200+); MS-67 (1,700+) and MS-66 (6,000+), with the balance being MS-65 and below.

 

(I'm not sure why there are two listings for MS-68 coins; that's what's in the book. Perhaps one group of MS-68s was from PCGS and the other is from NGC? However, in the estimated population, Bowers' only lists 11 MS-68s. Perhaps someone can clear this up?)

 

Dave, the PCGS pop report shows 10 pieces graded MS69. Therefore, my guess is that one of the two listings you noted for "MS68 (10)" was a typo and was intended to say "MS69 (10)". Also, PCGS lists 101 MS68's and NGC lists 158. Perhaps some of them are non-Wells Fargo examples and/or some are upgrades. But those numbers jive with the "MS-68 (200+)" you noted.

[GoldFinger1969]

Dave, the PCGS pop report shows 10 pieces graded MS69. Therefore, my guess is that one of the two listings you noted for "MS68 (10)" was a typo and was intended to say "MS69 (10)". Also, PCGS lists 101 MS68's and NGC lists 158. Perhaps some of them are non-Wells Fargo examples and/or some are upgrades. But those numbers jive with the "MS-68 (200+)" you noted.

 

Mark, those are very high gradings which probably accounts for alot of the interest in the WF hoard.

 

I know that the 1907 UHR which is up for sale now is graded MS69, I wonder how many 69's (and 68's) are out there from all the rest of the population. I would venture single-digits on the 69's and maybe a few dozen on the 68's ? Have to tally the population gradings some time.

 

Have not read about any MS70's for the Saint Gaudens, maybe the 2 1933's in the Smithsonian would qualify.

[RWB]

The SI 1933 DE are typical uncirculated -- MS62 or 63.

[GoldFinger1969]

The SI 1933 DE are typical uncirculated -- MS62 or 63.

 

Really ? I thought they went straight from the U.S. Mint to the Smithsonian.

[MarkFeld]

The SI 1933 DE are typical uncirculated -- MS62 or 63.

 

Really ? I thought they went straight from the U.S. Mint to the Smithsonian.

 

Even if they did, that wouldn't ensure that they would grade higher than 62-63.

[GoldFinger1969]

Even if they did, that wouldn't ensure that they would grade higher than 62-63.

 

Mark, why is that ? I know that minting coins 80+ years ago wasn't as seamless as today where virtually all new coins are MS 68/69/70, but unless there was a problem with the mint/press, why would it be in the 62-63 range ?

 

I know it's not a proof, but I would have thought the grading on the 2 Smithsonian coins would be much higher.

 

Do you think when they made the 445,000 1933's they just sent 'any 2' of the Saints to the SI thinking that they could send them better ones later on in the year ?

 

Maybe the better quality ones were among the 445,000 that got melted? Or do you think all of them were likely low-60's grade quality because of press/die issues?

[MarkFeld]

Even if they did, that wouldn't ensure that they would grade higher than 62-63.

 

Mark, why is that ? I know that minting coins 80+ years ago wasn't as seamless as today where virtually all new coins are MS 68/69/70, but unless there was a problem with the mint/press, why would it be in the 62-63 range ?

 

I know it's not a proof, but I would have thought the grading on the 2 Smithsonian coins would be much higher.

 

Do you think when they made the 445,000 1933's they just sent 'any 2' of the Saints to the SI thinking that they could send them better ones later on in the year ?

 

Maybe the better quality ones were among the 445,000 that got melted? Or do you think all of them were likely low-60's grade quality because of press/die issues?

 

My guess is that the Smithsonian coins came from bags. And that the major consideration would be the fact that they were dated 1933, not their condition.

 

I don't claim to know their quality and would have guessed at higher grades. But a lot of Saints have been badly marked-up in bags.

[RWB]

The SI coins were leftovers from the 1933 Assay Commission and had been in the Cashier's small vault and moved around since Feb. 1934. The 0.900 fine gold alloy was easily marked and it took very little handling for a DE to acquire dings and scrapes. Further, just the 2 foot drop from a press into a receiving bin, plus manual counting was enough to mar the surfaces. Assay Commission coins were taken from bags. Early on, the mints tried to pick nice looking specimens to impress the Commissioners, but by the 1920s it was just “stuff.” There were so many DEs in some years that the Commission had thousands of pieces available.

[Kurtdog]

I've read in several places that this hoard was graded in a generous manner.

Marketing grading.

[RWB]

I think the place is called "Generous Manor" - one of those Florida gated communities where you have to pick up your deliverey pizza at the guard shack.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

The SI coins were leftovers from the 1933 Assay Commission and had been in the Cashier's small vault and moved around since Feb. 1934. The 0.900 fine gold alloy was easily marked and it took very little handling for a DE to acquire dings and scrapes. Further, just the 2 foot drop from a press into a receiving bin, plus manual counting was enough to mar the surfaces. Assay Commission coins were taken from bags. Early on, the mints tried to pick nice looking specimens to impress the Commissioners, but by the 1920s it was just “stuff.” There were so many DEs in some years that the Commission had thousands of pieces available.

 

Wow, great info...thanks RWB...you too, MF. (thumbs u