MS Grading: How Many "Dings" Allowed ?

[GoldFinger1969]

Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics brought up the issue of grading St. Gaudens $20 gold coins ATS more than a year ago. It probably was one of the posts that got her in trouble over there.

Can someone post a link or the article itself ?

[GoldFinger1969]

In addition to reading the grading guide before you buy anymore coins...I think it is MORE important to sit down at an auction viewing or go to a coin show and LOOK at a LOT of coins. To help answer your specific question go to the lot viewing and LOOK at ALL of the Saints and try to grade each yourself then note what the TPG gave it. Do this as many times as you can before you spend anymore dough....jom

 

Thanks Jom...I intend to. (thumbs u For the most part, since the premiums I am paying above bullion for the coins I am looking at are not substantial (15-100%), my $$$ at risk is not something that will break me. This is money that I am not spending on Lotto or AC or Vegas, etc.

 

Obviously, if I buy a non-bullion coin at a 50,000 % premium to face value, I better know what I am doing. For now, I am sticking to Liberty's and Saints and I like the coins I am collecting.

 

I'm leaning alot from you guys, and when I move up to more expensive coins and/or higher mint states (which means higher prices) and the premiums move to 200-1,000% (or more !! ), then I have to be more discriminating, even with a TPG coin.

 

But that's a while down the road, thankfully.

[LeoMS69-migration]

Most of what is above is on the money! I agree about reading the PCGS guide and also don't overlook the NGC web site a lot of info there and there are differences between the guaranty agencies as to how to grade and what they grade.

 

I good grader will first look at the coin with no mag and evaluate the eye appeal and luster/color. Any gross wear or damage is noted. If the coin looks flawless it is then checked with a scope or loop usually (depending on coin and preference) 7X-10X mag is used. The wear points are evaluated and compared to strike for the particular dies used on that date and mint. If it shows no wear but poor strike it will not be AU graded. The graders at PCGS and NGC have the best database of pics of their registries to compare at their disposal and you can have access to most of that database if your a member. Of course Pics online are hard to grade but the pics from PCGS and NGC are the standard to judge by there not like EBay pics.

 

Other details that are checked are the fields To get a grade at MS66 or above they must be flawless and not just no marks,dings or scratches.The surface is looked at for cleaning or polishing or corrosion damage. At this level 20X or higher can be used with a microscope so there is no shake blur. Variety and surface checking can be as high as 20x-40x.

 

Some graders eliminate the very detailed zooming in check with the first look. If there experienced and good. Age has little to do with it Experience is everything.

 

I grade at least 100 coins a month, sometimes over 1000.

[wdrob]

I'll stand by my statement that a third party grader who spends no more than five seconds on a coin is doing lousy job.

 

Depending on your definition of a "lousy job", I would probably agree with you.

 

 

(Not that anyone who posted to this thread made such a statement (that is, "spend no more than five seconds on a coin") prior to you making it just now. I suppose you think you read it or meant to type it, but I just read through the posts again and no such assertion is present.)

 

 

It looks as if you did.

 

 

 

 

[DaveG]

wdrob,

 

If I told you that someone "can" run 100 yards in "about" 10 seconds, does that mean the same thing as saying that someone spends "no more" than 10 seconds running 100 yards?

 

To me, the first assertion is conditional - the person can or does (that is, sometimes or perhaps most times) perform the act in about 10 seconds, while the second is absolute (the person never, ever) spends more than 10 seconds performing the act.

 

To me, the two assertions are very different.

 

Let me know if you disagree.

[GoldFinger1969]

In addition to reading the grading guide before you buy anymore coins...I think it is MORE important to sit down at an auction viewing or go to a coin show and LOOK at a LOT of coins. To help answer your specific question go to the lot viewing and LOOK at ALL of the Saints and try to grade each yourself then note what the TPG gave it. Do this as many times as you can before you spend anymore dough....jom

 

Thanks Jom...I am sort of like a new investor to the stock and bond arenas who is playing it safe by investing only a small portion of his/her money in mutual funds where you can't get hurt too badly. Before I ante up Big $$$, I will be doing alot more reading. (thumbs u

[wdrob]

Let me know if you disagree.

 

I don't.

 

I wish they would spend more than 3 to 7 seconds on a coin.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Let me know if you disagree.

 

I don't.

 

I wish they would spend more than 3 to 7 seconds on a coin.

 

 

I believe that graders usually do spend more than 3 to 7 seconds on a coin. It's probably closer to 20 seconds on average. And that's a huge difference.

[MarkFeld]

?..

 

Other details that are checked are the fields To get a grade at MS66 or above they must be flawless and not just no marks,dings or scratches.?.

 

That is flat out incorrect. I say that as a former grader and a dealer who looks at a good many coins graded 66 and higher.

[wdrob]

 

I believe that graders usually do spend more than 3 to 7 seconds on a coin. It's probably closer to 20 seconds on average. And that's a huge difference.

 

20 Seconds sounds much more reasonable and, imo, more than likely a much more accurate estimation.

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

I have to disagree with you though: to me, that mark on the Eagle's wing is NOT a big mark, even under the high magnification and with your arrow there I have to look closely to see it. I don't think I would have found it unless I was told and/or a picture had that arrow you included. And I can't tell if it's a raised or hallowed-out mark on the wing it's tough to tell even under the magnified picture.

 

If that mark on my 1907 low relief St. Gaudens $20 were in the field or on the obverse, it would make all the difference. There is no way it would be missed. Marks on coins are like real estate. Three things are important: location, location and location.

[BillJones]

Here are a couple more third party graded St. Gaudens double eagles.

 

This one is graded MS-63. I think that this coin was under graded. It should be MS-64

 

 

This one is graded MS-64. The 1908 No Motto double eagle tends to come with so-so luster and sharpness. This was my first double eagle. I bought it when I was in high school.

 

 

 

[BillJones]

And here are three 1907 High Relief double eagles.

 

This one is graded MS-63.

 

 

This one is an MS-64. Some dealers rejected this one because of the copper stain at the bottom of the reverse, which I thought amounted to nothing.

 

 

And here is an MS-65, graded quite accurately by our hosts. (thumbs u

 

[jpcienkus]

Superb Bill. I'd love to see any of them in hand!! The 65 looks spectacular! Maybe some day I'll be able to own one.

[GoldFinger1969]

I guess it comes with being a veteran, but how did you know that was 'copper stain' on the bottom of the reverse of the MS 64, Bill ?

 

BTW, BEAUTIFUL coins -- congrats. If you don't mind my asking, how long have you had them....do you recall what the price for bullion was when you bought each and how much in total you paid for each one ?

[BillJones]

I knew all about the copper stain when I took that MS-64 example on consignment when I was a dealer. It was light and in an out of way place on the reverse. I might also add that some gold experts think that the presence of copper stains indicate that a U.S. gold piece is genuine. They claim that they have never see a counterfeit that had copper stains. At any rate some dealers pointed the copper stain out as the reason why they were not interested in the piece.

 

I had that coin years ago, and I have no idea what the price of gold bullion as at the time. It was a lot less than it is today. For these coins, it really doesn't matter that much. When the melt is say $1,200, when a coin sells for over $20,000, the melt is a minor consideration. I was interested in buying the coin, but the consigner wanted some like $28,000, which was too much at the time.

 

The other two have been or are in my collection. I paid Gray Sheet oriented prices at the time, which were well below today's numbers for the MS-63 and around them for the MS-65.

 

[mkman123]

this is why CAC and another sticker company PQ come in handy!

[GoldFinger1969]

I knew all about the copper stain when I took that MS-64 example on consignment when I was a dealer. It was light and in an out of way place on the reverse. I might also add that some gold experts think that the presence of copper stains indicate that a U.S. gold piece is genuine. They claim that they have never see a counterfeit that had copper stains. At any rate some dealers pointed the copper stain out as the reason why they were not interested in the piece.

 

Yup, it's a good indicator from my early readings that I picked up. Thanks !

 

I had that coin years ago, and I have no idea what the price of gold bullion as at the time. It was a lot less than it is today. For these coins, it really doesn't matter that much. When the melt is say $1,200, when a coin sells for over $20,000, the melt is a minor consideration. I was interested in buying the coin, but the consigner wanted some like $28,000, which was too much at the time.

 

I am always interested in the pricing of Saints relative to bullion (melt) just to get an indication of the premium involved. It's fascinating to see where the premiums go over time. Right now, they are very low on both a % and absolute $$$ basis. When gold was $400 an ounce or so in the 1990's the %/absolute premiums may have been lower but I can't recall. But premiums of 200-1,000% from a decade ago have fallen by half.

 

The other two have been or are in my collection. I paid Gray Sheet oriented prices at the time, which were well below today's numbers for the MS-63 and around them for the MS-65.

 

A friend of mine picked up a couple of MS 62 1911-S and 1914-D coins a few weeks ago; about $1,500 each he told me. Any thoughts on those coins and the price he paid ??

 

[jpcienkus]

A friend of mine picked up a couple of MS 62 1911-S and 1914-D coins a few weeks ago; about $1,500 each he told me. Any thoughts on those coins and the price he paid ??

 

Without seeing the coins, it would be very hard to judge. On paper, he paid below the prices listed in the NGC price guide. I didn't go to Heritage to look at auction history, which is where I would normaly go for more data points.

 

Census data at NGC:

1911-S: 1312 coins grade MS62, 3506 graded higher

1914-D: 1680 coins grade MS62, 4485 graded higher

 

Prices for both coins don't rise much in 63 or 64 grade, so he could have picked up some super sliders or they may be very bag marked coins. For me, without seeing the coins, it would be hard to say what kind of deal he achieved. If they are super sliders, I think he got a good deal, but if they are heavily "bag marked", I would have paid a little extra and got into the 64 grade.

[BillJones]

My attitude is to always buy the higher grade coin if the price difference between it and the low grade coin is not very much.

 

So far as what kind of deal your friend go, I'd say he paid full retail. You can go to a national or regional show and buy sight seen certified St. Gaudens $20 gold coins for somewhere around the Gray Sheet bid price which is currently about $1,375 in MS-62. The MS-63 bid price is only $10 more.

[GoldFinger1969]

My attitude is to always buy the higher grade coin if the price difference between it and the low grade coin is not very much. So far as what kind of deal your friend go, I'd say he paid full retail. You can go to a national or regional show and buy sight seen certified St. Gaudens $20 gold coins for somewhere around the Gray Sheet bid price which is currently about $1,375 in MS-62. The MS-63 bid price is only $10 more.

 

Yeah, he's like me he more or less sticks local. I think he said the price jump to MS 65 was pretty big, and he wanted to buy some bullion coins, too.

 

I'd like to stick to MS 65's myself when I build my collection, but I do see that even for some of the 'common' dates, there is a big jump between MS 62's and 65's. Anywhere from 50-200%. Of course, take it to 66 or 67 and then you can see another 300-1,000% -- or more.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

A friend of mine picked up a couple of MS 62 1911-S and 1914-D coins a few weeks ago; about $1,500 each he told me. Any thoughts on those coins and the price he paid ??

Without seeing the coins, it would be very hard to judge. On paper, he paid below the prices listed in the NGC price guide. I didn't go to Heritage to look at auction history, which is where I would normaly go for more data points.Census data at NGC:

1911-S: 1312 coins grade MS62, 3506 graded higher

1914-D: 1680 coins grade MS62, 4485 graded higher

 

Yeah, I know, I should have taken pics. Seems like he is in the ballpark, though if he was willing to goto $2,000 or so he might have gotten a decent MS65.

 

Prices for both coins don't rise much in 63 or 64 grade, so he could have picked up some super sliders or they may be very bag marked coins. For me, without seeing the coins, it would be hard to say what kind of deal he achieved. If they are super sliders, I think he got a good deal, but if they are heavily "bag marked", I would have paid a little extra and got into the 64 grade.

 

By super-slider, you mean what exactly ? The coins were TPG graded, so it wasn't like they were better than the MS 62 rating. You are talking about uncirculated coins in those little white cardboards that might have picked up some plastic PVC marks ??

 

Sorry, confused by some of the coin lingo....

[dimefreak]

Super slider... could go MS could go AU.... very light rub...most common on walkers because slight rub could be considered weak strike

[BillJones]

My attitude is to always buy the higher grade coin if the price difference between it and the low grade coin is not very much. So far as what kind of deal your friend go, I'd say he paid full retail. You can go to a national or regional show and buy sight seen certified St. Gaudens $20 gold coins for somewhere around the Gray Sheet bid price which is currently about $1,375 in MS-62. The MS-63 bid price is only $10 more.

 

Yeah, he's like me he more or less sticks local. I think he said the price jump to MS 65 was pretty big, and he wanted to buy some bullion coins, too.

 

I'd like to stick to MS 65's myself when I build my collection, but I do see that even for some of the 'common' dates, there is a big jump between MS 62's and 65's. Anywhere from 50-200%. Of course, take it to 66 or 67 and then you can see another 300-1,000% -- or more.

 

 

The trouble with buying $20 gold pieces graded MS-65 is that buying a so-called "C" coin (C=low end for the assigned grade) can bury you big time. The St. Gaudens $20 the spread from MS-64 to 65 is $370 on this week's Gray Sheet ($1,820 - $1,450 at $1,245 gold bullion price). For the $20 Liberty it's a lot risker because those coins are scarce in MS-65 and better and the prices reflect that. This week the swing is $1,360 ($3,170 - $1,810)

[GoldFinger1969]

The trouble with buying $20 gold pieces graded MS-65 is that buying a so-called "C" coin (C=low end for the assigned grade) can bury you big time. The St. Gaudens $20 the spread from MS-64 to 65 is $370 on this week's Gray Sheet ($1,820 - $1,450 at $1,245 gold bullion price). For the $20 Liberty it's a lot risker because those coins are scarce in MS-65 and better and the prices reflect that. This week the swing is $1,360 ($3,170 - $1,810)

 

Is there any way to tell if you got an A, B, or C grade for your MS number ?

 

Bill, one of the good things about starting out is I am buying the least-expensive commons....with gold bullion down in price...and with premiums (on an absolute and relative basis) also low.

 

In other words, I can't get burned TOO BADLY if I overpay. Yeah, I might be off $200 - $300 or so but I'm buying just 1 of the coins, not 10.

 

When I start to look at 1907's like you have -- I hope !! -- I'm going to hopefully be alot savvier buyer. I realize there that the absolute $$$ amounts are much larger, the premiums much higher, and if I buy wrong, I could be down a few thousand dollars before I even leave the show room or dealer.

 

Like I said, something to worry about for when I win the Lotto.....

 

But I appreciate your very informative posts and advice. Thanks !

[GoldFinger1969]

Without seeing the coins, it would be very hard to judge. On paper, he paid below the prices listed in the NGC price guide. I didn't go to Heritage to look at auction history, which is where I would normaly go for more data points.

Is this the NGC price guide you are referring to:

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/us-coin-prices.aspx?SubCatID=70&Designation=MS&PopSubCat=us-st.-gaudens-%2420

 

They all seem pretty high, even though the GREEN and RED arrows seem to be showing recent activity.

[jpcienkus]

Without seeing the coins, it would be very hard to judge. On paper, he paid below the prices listed in the NGC price guide. I didn't go to Heritage to look at auction history, which is where I would normaly go for more data points.

Is this the NGC price guide you are referring to:

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/us-coin-prices.aspx?SubCatID=70&Designation=MS&PopSubCat=us-st.-gaudens-%2420

 

They all seem pretty high, even though the GREEN and RED arrows seem to be showing recent activity.

 

Yes, that was the price guide I was referring to in my post. I typically look at the census numbers more than the price guide. I'll get a feel for pricing after looking at census numbers, but then head to Heritage Auction archives to look at auction results. I don't get the CDN grey sheet. Bill posted some figures from that publication. I wish I could regularly buy at grey sheet, but I don't have a well established relationship with a dealer to be able to do that, so I just want to know what the "neighborhood" is for pricing.

 

Someone already posted a definition for a super-slider, but to reiterate, it's a possible MS coin that the TPG detected a slight rub, but graded it MS anyway. They typically grade low MS (61-62).

[Nutmeg Coin]

I checked out the inventory of a dealer last week, he has had many of the same $20 Saints in the case for quite a while. They are graded MS63 and higher, some 64+, some "gem" graded that are clearly overgraded. One MS65 coin was quite unique with iridescent toning, not that common. On closer inspection it had a slight scratch, but the eye appeal carried the coin as a gem. The grading services can be far more critical of mintstate gold coins with hairlines, roll rub or clear indications of mis-handling than bag marks.

[Kurtdog]

Is there any way to tell if you got an A, B, or C grade for your MS number ?

YOU'D scarce expect one of my age

To speak in public on the stage,

And if I chance to fall below

Demosthenes or Cicero,

Don't view me with a critic's eye,

But pass my imperfections by.

Large streams from little fountains flow,

Tall oaks from little acorns grow;

And though now I am small and young,

Of judgment weak and feeble tongue,

Yet all great, learned men, like me

Once learned to read their ABC.

[GoldFinger1969]

I checked out the inventory of a dealer last week, he has had many of the same $20 Saints in the case for quite a while. They are graded MS63 and higher, some 64+, some "gem" graded that are clearly overgraded. One MS65 coin was quite unique with iridescent toning, not that common. On closer inspection it had a slight scratch, but the eye appeal carried the coin as a gem. The grading services can be far more critical of mintstate gold coins with hairlines, roll rub or clear indications of mis-handling than bag marks.

 

Was that dealer at the Westchester show ?

 

Agreed on the grading services....it seems from talking to many Saint fans that what they consider a deal-breaker on buying a coin at a certain grade is often different from what the TPGs will allow and sometimes vice-versa.