Are Sellers Being Realistic In Pricing ?

[TonerGuy]

 

All to say, I agree with our esteemed colleague, Mark Feld, on this one. Some things are just better left to the market.

 

The market is setting the prices. Thats not the issue. What I am saying is that there are already forces occurring in the toned coin market. Its just a matter of quantifying and recorded the prices.

 

Anyone who studies/buys/sells toners of all types generally knows the range of prices of their specialty. Its the newbies that get killed. I dont collect Morgans - if I tried to buy a monster toned Morgan - well I might not even know what one is but I certainly wouldnt know how to price it. But I assure you there are people that do.

 

I see people buying toned Peace $ on Ebay and at auction that they will be buried in for years. But if they had the help of a price guide they may not over pay.

 

What would you have the price guide say - "MS65 common date Morgan Dollars with amazing color can sell for between $600 and $6000"?

 

Amy range that would cover the majority of coins and prices they might bring would have to be so large as to be essentially useless.

 

 

 

Please post examples with photos of your MS65 common date Morgan with amazing color that can sell from $600 to $6000...

 

While I do not know the Morgan market I would like to see such a coin.

 

I can tell you that Im not familiar with such coins in the toned Peace $ market.

 

I have yet to see a toned 1922 Peace $ go as high as $6000. $600 yes, $1000 yes but that tends to be the top of the market for a MS65. Ive seen MS66 toned Peace $ being priced the $3000-$5000 range but I am not familiar with any actual auction sales at that level.

[GoldFinger1969]

MS65 and higher CAC certified Saints have been subject to significantly higher sight unseen bids than non-CAC examples for a long time. The premium is certainly there, whether everyone acknowledges and/or agrees with it or not.

 

I definitely see it, no doubt about it. It all depends on where that 'parabolic takeoff' in the pricing takes off. Since I've been doing most of my investigating in the St. Gaudens Double Eagle arena, that seems to be right about MS65 (depending on the year, strike, and mintage). I guess if you had a CAC sticker on a 1924 MS 62, it wouldn't add much value, right (BTW, what exactly DOES the CAC sticker signify/add -- is it just an affirmation of the TPG rating?).

 

In my prices above....$100 or LESS increases up to MS 64....then you see a $300 increase at the MS65 level and then it increases at an accelerating rate, all else equal, for MS 66 and MS 67 and beyond (which makes sense, since the number of coins at the higher ratings falls off dramatically while demand increases).

[MarkFeld]

 

All to say, I agree with our esteemed colleague, Mark Feld, on this one. Some things are just better left to the market.

 

The market is setting the prices. Thats not the issue. What I am saying is that there are already forces occurring in the toned coin market. Its just a matter of quantifying and recorded the prices.

 

Anyone who studies/buys/sells toners of all types generally knows the range of prices of their specialty. Its the newbies that get killed. I dont collect Morgans - if I tried to buy a monster toned Morgan - well I might not even know what one is but I certainly wouldnt know how to price it. But I assure you there are people that do.

 

I see people buying toned Peace $ on Ebay and at auction that they will be buried in for years. But if they had the help of a price guide they may not over pay.

 

What would you have the price guide say - "MS65 common date Morgan Dollars with amazing color can sell for between $600 and $6000"?

 

Amy range that would cover the majority of coins and prices they might bring would have to be so large as to be essentially useless.

 

 

 

Please post examples with photos of your MS65 common date Morgan with amazing color that can sell from $600 to $6000...

 

While I do not know the Morgan market I would like to see such a coin.

 

I can tell you that Im not familiar with such coins in the toned Peace $ market.

 

I have yet to see a toned 1922 Peace $ go as high as $6000. $600 yes, $1000 yes but that tends to be the top of the market for a MS65. Ive seen MS66 toned Peace $ being priced the $3000-$5000 range but I am not familiar with any actual auction sales at that level.

 

I found the auction sales below, after searching for a few minutes. I'm sure there are others, as well as many private transactions at similar or higher levels.

 

$4600+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1151&lotNo=5886

$5200+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1186&lotNo=4953

$4800+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=352&lotNo=4168

[MarkFeld]

MS65 and higher CAC certified Saints have been subject to significantly higher sight unseen bids than non-CAC examples for a long time. The premium is certainly there, whether everyone acknowledges and/or agrees with it or not.

 

I definitely see it, no doubt about it. It all depends on where that 'parabolic takeoff' in the pricing takes off. Since I've been doing most of my investigating in the St. Gaudens Double Eagle arena, that seems to be right about MS65 (depending on the year, strike, and mintage). I guess if you had a CAC sticker on a 1924 MS 62, it wouldn't add much value, right (BTW, what exactly DOES the CAC sticker signify/add -- is it just an affirmation of the TPG rating?).

 

In my prices above....$100 or LESS increases up to MS 64....then you see a $300 increase at the MS65 level and then it increases at an accelerating rate, all else equal, for MS 66 and MS 67 and beyond (which makes sense, since the number of coins at the higher ratings falls off dramatically while demand increases).

 

As I understand it, a green CAC sticker signifies that in the opinion of CAC, the coin is solid for the assigned grade or better - an A or B coin for the grade, but not a C coin. And a gold sticker signifies that in the opinion of CAC, the coin is under-graded by a point or more.

 

As mentioned previously, due to differences in sight-unseen bid levels, CAC MS65 Saints typically sell for more than just a $300 premium over non-certified ones.

[TonerGuy]

I found the auction sales below, after searching for a few minutes. I'm sure there are others, as well as many private transactions at similar or higher levels.

 

$4600+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1151&lotNo=5886

$5200+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1186&lotNo=4953

$4800+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=352&lotNo=4168

 

Im not versed in Morgans but I cannot say I am surprised by those prices. All of those coins seem to have less than common color even from the little I do know about toned Morgans.

 

Are there comparably toned Morgans that have less dramatic toning that sell for $4600-$5200 or are these "special?"

 

Or do you ever see these types of coins with this color selling for $600 consistently ?

 

What is looks like to me is that you helped make my case for a price guide. An MS65 Morgan with exceptionally vivid & colorful toning has a range of $4600-$5200 at auction...

 

Now if you can find a rather bland comparable coin also selling for $4600-$5200 then it might be more problematic.

 

On the opposite end of the spectrum - I would assume that we can find a lot more common date MS65 Morgans with nice but not stellar toning going in the $460-$520 range.

 

Just an FYI this is a difficult conversation/analysis since I dont research, buy or track these coins. I am truly asking your opinion since I assume you know far more than me about toned Morgans.

 

If you want to talk toned Peace $ I would be much more informed in my opinions.

[MarkFeld]

I found the auction sales below, after searching for a few minutes. I'm sure there are others, as well as many private transactions at similar or higher levels.

 

$4600+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1151&lotNo=5886

$5200+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1186&lotNo=4953

$4800+ http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=352&lotNo=4168

 

Im not versed in Morgans but I cannot say I am surprised by those prices. All of those coins seem to have less than common color even from the little I do know about toned Morgans.

 

Are there comparably toned Morgans that have less dramatic toning that sell for $4600-$5200 or are these "special?"

 

Or do you ever see these types of coins with this color selling for $600 consistently ?

 

What is looks like to me is that you helped make my case for a price guide. An MS65 Morgan with exceptionally vivid & colorful toning has a range of $4600-$5200 at auction...

 

Now if you can find a rather bland comparable coin also selling for $4600-$5200 then it might be more problematic.

 

On the opposite end of the spectrum - I would assume that we can find a lot more common date MS65 Morgans with nice but not stellar toning going in the $460-$520 range.

 

Just an FYI this is a difficult conversation/analysis since I dont research, buy or track these coins. I am truly asking your opinion since I assume you know far more than me about toned Morgans.

 

If you want to talk toned Peace $ I would be much more informed in my opinions.

 

My examples made no case for a price guide of the type and range you noted above.

 

Other results could be cited at many different price levels. And the differences in toning would range from minimal to dramatic. Additionally, due to the subjectivity involved, one collector's beautiful coin is another's "monster". I'm guessing that if you did enough searching, you would find some $2000-$4000 coins that you thought were as appealing as the examples I provided. But I don't care to do the work for you.

 

Even experts often disagree about whether an amazing looking example is a $2000 coin or a $3000 one, or whether another is a $4000 coin or a $6000 one, etc. You are looking for uniformity in prices that does not exist.

[e1cnr]

There are some hard core collectors that have no problem paying 10-15 times price guide for stuff they 'like'.

 

 

Every coin is different and what you want is just like buying a 10 year old used vehicle and being able to punch a couple keys to say exactly what it is worth.

[TonerGuy]

[

 

My examples made no case for a price guide of the type and range you noted above.

 

Other results could be cited at many different price levels. And the differences in toning would range from minimal to dramatic. Additionally, due to the subjectivity involved, one collector's beautiful coin is another's "monster". I'm guessing that if you did enough searching, you would find some $2000-$4000 coins that you thought were as appealing as the examples I provided. But I don't care to do the work for you.

 

Even experts often disagree about whether an amazing looking example is a $2000 coin or a $3000 one, or whether another is a $4000 coin or a $6000 one, etc. You are looking for uniformity in prices that does not exist.

 

I understand your point but I disagree. Sorry that you gave 3 coins that were priced closely together. Your coins seem to support a different contention.

 

All the arguments you just made could apply equally about any coin. Grading is subjective, eye appeal is subjective, surface preservation is even ultimately subjective. When computers start grading coins on objective basis with lasers perhaps then it will change. Why should only blast white coins on a MS grading scale have a price guide? Just because something is difficult or novel doesnt make it impossible.

 

When we have price guides with huge jumps from one grade to the next how is that really different then a huge jump price because of eye appeal. The market will still decide grade and eye appeal. And if it wasnt such a subjective decision would we really need CAC to tell us the difference between A & B coins ?

 

Im surprised that you dont think that could be applied to toners ? My suggestion is that toned coins have been popular for years. Its a market that has now hit a level of maturity - especially in Morgans. Perhaps not yet in other denominations but certainly there is enough information available on Morgans that if someone wanted to start a CAC for toning and others wanted to put together a price guide based on that - there would be a market for it.

 

Why would educating collectors not be something we strive for ? Isnt stability in the market something that assists the whole community ?

 

I think we harm the general community when someone buys a $600 Morgan for $6000 and doesnt realize his/her mistake just to lose money later. We like to say that its part of the cost of the education of being a collector - I just think its bad for business.

 

I just desire to see a system in place that can assist those that want to collect toners that might be intimidated to do so because of the price fluctuations.

 

[TonerGuy]

There are some hard core collectors that have no problem paying 10-15 times price guide for stuff they 'like'.

 

 

Every coin is different and what you want is just like buying a 10 year old used vehicle and being able to punch a couple keys to say exactly what it is worth.

 

Very true but here's the issue. If I can show you a price guide based on years of hard data that paying 10-15x price guide of a white coin is not a bad decision then you are more likely to buy.

 

But if I can show you that the coin you want to buy has historically only sold for 5-7x over price guide you at least know that you are overpaying. Then its an informed decision.

 

"You" is rhetorical. You like toners so you should have an idea of what prices should be paid. But what about the newb ? My aim is toward him not you.

 

You may also want to look at KellyBlueBook.com for the price on that 10 year old vehicle.

 

http://www.kbb.com/?psid=99999&gclid=ckpc9eqe-rscfw9xqgod8esafq&siomid=si_381818731_10346635609_1&siclientid=3767&sessguid=976cc3e6-11fe-4746-98cb-65bde03c4bfb&userguid=976cc3e6-11fe-4746-98cb-65bde03c4bfb&permguid=976cc3e6-11fe-4746-98cb-65bde03c4bfb&sissr=1

[GoldFinger1969]

There are some hard core collectors that have no problem paying 10-15 times price guide for stuff they 'like'. Every coin is different and what you want is just like buying a 10 year old used vehicle and being able to punch a couple keys to say exactly what it is worth.

 

That's so true. In baseball, there's a saying that "all it takes is 1 dumb owner" to set the 'market.'

 

Since we are not dealing with liquid markets here, ultimately any 'market value' determined by a single high price or a few random high prices is not really a market. For instance, the market for MS 62-65 Saint Gaudens is pretty liquid as coins go and you know that the 'fair value' is approximately 20-50% over the spot price of gold (at least right now). You know that premiums can disappear for whatever reason, but at least you know that your downside is bullion value (would never happen, but good to know).

 

OTOH, when you are dealing with coins with minimal silver or gold content and trading at HUGE premiums to that bullion value -- 500 - 5000% -- then those numbers can disappear or be reduced. It's possible that if you looked at a very narrow segment of an otherwise liquid area -- let's say, MS 67 Saints for a low-mintage year -- you could pay 1,000-3,000% over bullion and easily see that move down if you just chased the "1 dumb buyer" referenced earlier. Of course, it could also move up.

 

The big wave that I see is that for high-quality premium numismatics, there aren't any more of these being made (supply is fixed) but the demand goes UP over time as more and more wealth is created in this country and globally (though the buyers for U.S. coins probably skews heavily American). Tens of trillions in wealth will change hands in the next few decades, hundreds of billions every year, and this wealth will find its way to people wanting trophy automobiles, real estate, art, and coins. Plus new wealth being created from the stock market, real estate markets, etc.

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Very true but here's the issue. If I can show you a price guide based on years of hard data that paying 10-15x price guide of a white coin is not a bad decision then you are more likely to buy.

 

But if I can show you that the coin you want to buy has historically only sold for 5-7x over price guide you at least know that you are overpaying. Then its an informed decision.

TonerGuy, toning is already reflected in the price guides by way of the market grades. Here, take a look at this link: http://www.pcgs.com/eyeappeal.html. This is the PCGS market grading “guidelines” for eye appeal. Note the PCGS Price Guide doesn’t differentiate untoned coins from toned coins that the TPG in its discretion determines are "Amazing,” or “Positive,” or “Above Average,” or “Neutral,” or “Below Average,” or “Negative,” or "Ugly.” As such, note, 10-15X PCGS Price Guide isn’t necessarily 10-15X an untoned coin.

 

Here's an idea. Let people buy what they want for what they want and sell what they want for what they want and let that be reflected in the price guides. Note, these aren’t prices for your coins, but guides. Price your coins how you want. Let your market tell you whether your prices for your coins are realistic, not some price guide.

[World Colonial]

I would rate the number of foreign buyers for the US coins described in this thread as effectively zero. I do not see that they have any financial impact worth mentioning except in isolation. The obvious reason for this is that their own coins are so much cheaper.

[Kurtdog]

I would rate the number of foreign buyers for the US coins described in this thread as effectively zero. I do not see that they have any financial impact worth mentioning except in isolation. The obvious reason for this is that their own coins are so much cheaper.

There's less marketing behind their coins. That's the reason.

[CaptHenway]

It is just human nature for some people. I moved into my new house last April. There is a house on the block that was for sale then, and is still for sale now. My realtor told me they want too much money. In the meantime another house came on the market and sold quickly.

 

Edited to add: That said, not all Sellers are unreasonable. Perhaps you might consider adding "Some" before "Sellers" in the thread title.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

It is just human nature for some people. I moved into my new house last April. There is a house on the block that was for sale then, and is still for sale now. My realtor told me they want too much money. In the meantime another house came on the market and sold quickly.

 

Edited to add: That said, not all Sellers are unreasonable. Perhaps you might consider adding "Some" before "Sellers" in the thread title.

 

I assume there is no chance the Realtor may have made more money from the house you bought than he could have with the other house, for a number of reasons.

 

I agree though. Not all Sellers are unreasonable, just as some but not all Buyers are.

[TonerGuy]

TonerGuy, toning is already reflected in the price guides by way of the market grades. Here, take a look at this link: http://www.pcgs.com/eyeappeal.html. This is the PCGS market grading “guidelines” for eye appeal. Note the PCGS Price Guide doesn’t differentiate untoned coins from toned coins that the TPG in its discretion determines are "Amazing,” or “Positive,” or “Above Average,” or “Neutral,” or “Below Average,” or “Negative,” or "Ugly.” As such, note, 10-15X PCGS Price Guide isn’t necessarily 10-15X an untoned coin.

 

I like this idea and thank you for sharing the link. I definitely think that is a step in the right direction. Thats the kind of information that someone that is just getting into the toned coin market should be reading. I dont spend much time over there so I had never seen that page before.

 

It gives some idea of how toning can + or - effect the price. I think the starting point of 1 full point to a half point is limiting though. An "Amazing" toned Peace $ of a common date is going to raise the price at least 2-3 full technical points, not just one. But on a Jefferson it might only be 1-2. So thats why I think a more specific "price guide" (again forgive me for using that term for the lack of anything else) for each denomination would even be more useful.

 

And that is what I am trying to get to. Some basic information so that people can make smart, safe buying decisions with toned coins.

 

There is a certain selfish to it as well. I see so many toned Peace $ that I would like to own but I see the prices being asked and either its a situation where an uniformed collector paid too much and is now just trying to get his money back on the coin or a dealer is (could also be buried) or they're just waiting for the "right" buyer to come along and overpay.

 

Either way, the coin sits in an inventory or on Ebay and really no one gets to enjoy it.

[GoldFinger1969]

TonerGuy, I think that the problem with toned coins is that it is such a specialized niche of particular coins.

 

Numismatic coins are already an ILLIQUID asset, except for pure bullion coins. Even the most popular, most-bid on coins like Morgan Silver Dollars and St. Gaudens Double Eagles can see great fluctuations based on the numismatic premium, even if silver/gold don't change (see my price quotes earlier in this thread comparing 2000 vs. 2005 prices).

 

As I see it, while toned coins are definitely beautiful to those who seek them, it's a subset of all coin collectors. Plus, some people are NOT attracted to any toned coins because to them it's a discolored coin (not saying that's the case, but that's how they feel).

 

So what is the price for a unique asset that might have fewer bidders if a seller needs to unload it ? In a bull market for coins, probably not a worry but other times....who knows ?

 

For myself, silver coins are not my passion so toned coins are even of less interest. Would I get a few down the line ? Yeah, I might. But I'd be very wary of making an INVESTMENT in them and would probably just be buying because it's a coin that I enjoy. I know I would never spend the $$$ on a toned coin that I pay for a gold coin, bullion or St. Gaudens, because it's alot of $$$. But to each his own.

 

As far as pricing: it's hard to figure because it's such a specialized subset. It's like asking what is the market value of a home in a typical suburban neighborhood that is just like all the others in the neighborhood....except it has 5 garages whereas everybody else has 2-car garages. Could be worth very little because most people buying in that neighborhood don't need/want 5 cars or it could be very appealing to someone who has a unique family with a bunch of kid drivers.

 

It all depends.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

TonerGuy, I think that the problem with toned coins is that it is such a specialized niche of particular coins.

 

Numismatic coins are already an ILLIQUID asset, except for pure bullion coins. Even the most popular, most-bid on coins like Morgan Silver Dollars and St. Gaudens Double Eagles can see great fluctuations based on the numismatic premium, even if silver/gold don't change (see my price quotes earlier in this thread comparing 2000 vs. 2005 prices).

 

As I see it, while toned coins are definitely beautiful to those who seek them, it's a subset of all coin collectors. Plus, some people are NOT attracted to any toned coins because to them it's a discolored coin (not saying that's the case, but that's how they feel).

 

So what is the price for a unique asset that might have fewer bidders if a seller needs to unload it ? In a bull market for coins, probably not a worry but other times....who knows ?

 

For myself, silver coins are not my passion so toned coins are even of less interest. Would I get a few down the line ? Yeah, I might. But I'd be very wary of making an INVESTMENT in them and would probably just be buying because it's a coin that I enjoy. I know I would never spend the $$$ on a toned coin that I pay for a gold coin, bullion or St. Gaudens, because it's alot of $$$. But to each his own.

 

As far as pricing: it's hard to figure because it's such a specialized subset. It's like asking what is the market value of a home in a typical suburban neighborhood that is just like all the others in the neighborhood....except it has 5 garages whereas everybody else has 2-car garages. Could be worth very little because most people buying in that neighborhood don't need/want 5 cars or it could be very appealing to someone who has a unique family with a bunch of kid drivers.

 

It all depends.

 

 

While I understand what you are saying, and it is a logical observation, it has been my experience that collectors of all types are seeking toned pieces.

It may be true that toning is a unique subset to the series of a coin, or the coins a person collects, but I don't think that translates to a unique asset with few bidders.

 

When YNs are on the Show floor and actively seeking such coins, that is a pretty good indication of popularity. I also don't think the average collector has 'investment" on his/her mind, when seeking out toned examples of any coin.

 

You are correct, to each his own. But, some of the gold coins you have collected (invested in) are subject to the same drops and/or gains as any other coin on any given day. If the approach to coin collecting is that investment is primary, it may not be the best approach.

[CaptHenway]

It is just human nature for some people. I moved into my new house last April. There is a house on the block that was for sale then, and is still for sale now. My realtor told me they want too much money. In the meantime another house came on the market and sold quickly.

 

Edited to add: That said, not all Sellers are unreasonable. Perhaps you might consider adding "Some" before "Sellers" in the thread title.

 

I assume there is no chance the Realtor may have made more money from the house you bought than he could have with the other house, for a number of reasons.

 

I agree though. Not all Sellers are unreasonable, just as some but not all Buyers are.

 

Why would you suggest the possibility of malice on the part of the realtor? It was a floor plan I had no interest in, but we were discussing the housing market in the neighborhood I was looking at.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

It is just human nature for some people. I moved into my new house last April. There is a house on the block that was for sale then, and is still for sale now. My realtor told me they want too much money. In the meantime another house came on the market and sold quickly.

 

Edited to add: That said, not all Sellers are unreasonable. Perhaps you might consider adding "Some" before "Sellers" in the thread title.

 

I assume there is no chance the Realtor may have made more money from the house you bought than he could have with the other house, for a number of reasons.

 

I agree though. Not all Sellers are unreasonable, just as some but not all Buyers are.

 

Why would you suggest the possibility of malice on the part of the realtor? It was a floor plan I had no interest in, but we were discussing the housing market in the neighborhood I was looking at.

 

As usual with my Posts made as a commentary, you assume malicious intent. The only time you answer or decide to comment on a Post I may make in response to you, is when you perceive an opening to present my words in a less than honorable manner. Instead, why don't you take a little bit of time and logically digest my words, and, as I have said to you before, do so without preconceived notions of my intent. I really don't care if you might not like my words, or me, for that matter. However, please don't present me as a malicious evil intending person, because you don't have the slightest knowledge of me, or my personality or my reasons fro doing things. In fact, why would you care? It is better for you to ignore me, then worry about it.

[Kurtdog]

Wow. I thought I was the evil guy, here, John. What are you trying to do, compete?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Wow. I thought I was the evil guy, here, John. What are you trying to do, compete?

 

I would consider it more honorable and honest company.

[GoldFinger1969]

While I understand what you are saying, and it is a logical observation, it has been my experience that collectors of all types are seeking toned pieces. It may be true that toning is a unique subset to the series of a coin, or the coins a person collects, but I don't think that translates to a unique asset with few bidders.When YNs are on the Show floor and actively seeking such coins, that is a pretty good indication of popularity. I also don't think the average collector has 'investment" on his/her mind, when seeking out toned examples of any coin.

You are correct, to each his own. But, some of the gold coins you have collected (invested in) are subject to the same drops and/or gains as any other coin on any given day. If the approach to coin collecting is that investment is primary, it may not

be the best approach.

 

The people I know are not into toned coins. So I could be mistaken on their popularity, yes.

 

But the general preference among the people I know is they look for the highest-quality coins, often mint state or better. And since they are generally looking for coins without marks, they tend to not consider toned coins in the first place.

 

Again, could just be the people I know.

 

I'll ask for sure and look around at the upcoming Westchester Coin Show and see at an actual show how much toned coin interest there is. Could be a ton, if so, I'll report back.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

While I understand what you are saying, and it is a logical observation, it has been my experience that collectors of all types are seeking toned pieces. It may be true that toning is a unique subset to the series of a coin, or the coins a person collects, but I don't think that translates to a unique asset with few bidders.When YNs are on the Show floor and actively seeking such coins, that is a pretty good indication of popularity. I also don't think the average collector has 'investment" on his/her mind, when seeking out toned examples of any coin.

You are correct, to each his own. But, some of the gold coins you have collected (invested in) are subject to the same drops and/or gains as any other coin on any given day. If the approach to coin collecting is that investment is primary, it may not

be the best approach.

 

The people I know are not into toned coins. So I could be mistaken on their popularity, yes.

 

But the general preference among the people I know is they look for the highest-quality coins, often mint state or better. And since they are generally looking for coins without marks, they tend to not consider toned coins in the first place.

 

Again, could just be the people I know.

 

I'll ask for sure and look around at the upcoming Westchester Coin Show and see at an actual show how much toned coin interest there is. Could be a ton, if so, I'll report back.

 

I would be very interested in your observations, and I would be very interested in YN interest in general. If YN specific interest areas can be gleaned, that would be great.

[Kurtdog]

John, please. You're ruining my bad reputation.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

John, please. You're ruining my bad reputation.

 

[TonerGuy]

TonerGuy, I think that the problem with toned coins is that it is such a specialized niche of particular coins.

 

Numismatic coins are already an ILLIQUID asset, except for pure bullion coins. Even the most popular, most-bid on coins like Morgan Silver Dollars and St. Gaudens Double Eagles can see great fluctuations based on the numismatic premium, even if silver/gold don't change (see my price quotes earlier in this thread comparing 2000 vs. 2005 prices).

 

As I see it, while toned coins are definitely beautiful to those who seek them, it's a subset of all coin collectors. Plus, some people are NOT attracted to any toned coins because to them it's a discolored coin (not saying that's the case, but that's how they feel).

 

So what is the price for a unique asset that might have fewer bidders if a seller needs to unload it ? In a bull market for coins, probably not a worry but other times....who knows ?

 

For myself, silver coins are not my passion so toned coins are even of less interest. Would I get a few down the line ? Yeah, I might. But I'd be very wary of making an INVESTMENT in them and would probably just be buying because it's a coin that I enjoy. I know I would never spend the $$$ on a toned coin that I pay for a gold coin, bullion or St. Gaudens, because it's alot of $$$. But to each his own.

 

As far as pricing: it's hard to figure because it's such a specialized subset. It's like asking what is the market value of a home in a typical suburban neighborhood that is just like all the others in the neighborhood....except it has 5 garages whereas everybody else has 2-car garages. Could be worth very little because most people buying in that neighborhood don't need/want 5 cars or it could be very appealing to someone who has a unique family with a bunch of kid drivers.

 

It all depends.

 

 

Thank you GF for the wise words. I have been specializing in "some" toned coins for more than 15 yrs. I have been posting on and reading these message boards since the year 2002.

 

While you may read some of my posts as being newbish - please dont think that I am not familiar with the market forces in play. I do not try to overstate my position. I dont collect toned Morgans and therefore I would never say that I know toned Morgans. Especially because we do have men that post here that I would call experts in that area. The toned coin market is highly specialized and I specialize in a different area. I would put my knowledge of the toned Peace $ market against any dealer or collector here.

 

And I could actually do a price guide on toned Peace $. I have seen thousands of examples, have bought and sold more toned examples that anyone else here and research them on a daily basis. And Im sure there are others on this board that know as much if not more about toned Morgans, Franklins, Washington Quarters, Roosevelt Dimes and all other other various popular toned coins. Who could also do a price guide within their specialty.

 

If you are looking for an investment, I concur with what johncurlis says. You may want to look outside this market for such. And so you are aware I can make far more profit from a toned coin than an gold bar or coin.

 

And that is the problem... Its easy to buy and sell bullion. You are told what the price is and either accept it or dont. When it comes to toned coins it takes years of research study and mistake making to learn. I would like to see the market for toned coins to grow and take some of the mystery out of it for a lot of people.

 

I bought 2 nicely toned coins today from a dealer for sheet. He had no idea about the premiums people are willing to pay for such or he didnt care either way there is 100% profit mark up on both coins on Ebay. It would be impossible for you to buy gold bullion today and double your money by tonight.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

I bought 2 nicely toned coins today from a dealer for sheet. He had no idea about the premiums people are willing to pay for such or he didnt care either way there is 100% profit mark up on both coins on Ebay. It would be impossible for you to buy gold bullion today and double your money by tonight.

 

You should change your name....we should call you Mr.TonerGuy !!!!!

 

Congrats, and great job. Like I said, you're the expert on this segment, me and others are just offering speculation and general thoughts.

[GoldFinger1969]

Isn't there something online or in digital format from CDN or the Grey Sheet that shows the prices for major coins in major grades, and also the premiums (since we know the price of bullion) ?

 

I would think that something like that should or would have been done going back decades, and that the paper version of the Grey Sheet should have been available in digital format since at least 2000....no ?

 

Pricing for current transactions is much more transparent than years ago but I don't seem to find PRICE HISTORY sources much better than decades ago.

 

 

[DaveG]

The Grey Sheet has a digital option, but I don't know if you also get access to any digital archives.

 

Grey Sheet Website