Are Sellers Being Realistic In Pricing ?

[A.Phillips]

 

I agree with most of you on this post.

 

I know that some buyers/collectors out there who are willing to pay excess than what it's worth on PCGS price guide because if he or she thinks that coin deserves to be at their home, he/she will buy it at that price. I think that's what the seller who selling the coin at high price is waiting for. However, the eBay fees and PayPal fees are the most common reason why the seller added extra $ along with price guide on Buy It Now or reserve bid. It's just my 2 cents.

[Kurtdog]

My guess is that since toned coins are not the bulk of sales for most coins/mintages, that the price guides we see are for market transactions and most of those are non-toned.

This is just a guess, too, GoldFinger, but I'll guess you're right. Still, as toning is appreciated through emotions, it's incorporating irrationality into the price guides, to the degree it's getting in, and it might not be a bad idea to just be aware of that.

[GoldFinger1969]

I see two other possibilities which I do not think anyone has mentioned. With generic US gold or other coins like it, its possible that the seller is "buried" in the coin because they bought it when bullion was much higher or just over paid for it. I believe there are a lot of people who probably won't negotiate if it requires selling at a loss.

 

Bingo...the volatility in the numismatic premium alone can make or break someone's P&L. I think I referenced earlier this week that in 2000 (gold = $300) that an MS 65 Saint was $3,000....but that 5 years later when gold was over $800 the price had fallen to about $1,700 !!! Someone guessed right on the price of gold...bought a numismatic for leverage....bought a premiere, popular coin....bought a premium grade (MS65)....and lost their shirt !! I wasn't following coins in the 2000's that heavily, and this may have been peculiar to just a few of the Saints, but I am sure it happened with other numismatics (I know it happened with the gold mining stocks).

 

The second possibility is that they are hoping to find some uninformed buyer that they can rip off.

 

Yup....played dumb once at a coin show and the guy tried to sell me on some SS Central America coins at a huge premium. Gold went up 5-fold and the coins did nothing. Interesting story, and might be a buy at the current price even with gold higher, but back then it was all hype and you needed a miracle to overcome the 500% premium.

 

Different collecting area but I see this all the time on the South African version of eBay, BidOrBuy. I see coins which are listed repeatedly and not only does the seller not lower the starting price, they RAISE it. Utter complete idiocy.

 

I would suspect that South American buyers are less savvy and Internet-wise than their U.S. counterparts. Dealt with many SA clients over the years, aside from businessmen who know markets, many people are very trusting and unsophistcated.

 

The second thing I see are multiple coins in the same grades or near it at wildly different prices or where the asking price is a lot more than the most recent sale which any potential bidder can verify for themselves.

 

This is what I noted at the beginning of the thread. I see 15-20% differences for coins which are rated the same (MS 65 is the grade I usually check out) and have no discernible differences in luster/appearance. I can't figure it out.

 

The third thing I see are listing prices based upon the FICTIONAL values in the Hern guide (equivalent to the "Red Book"). In a few instances, the catalog price is 10 times or even more what the coin is actually "worth" based upon the most recent sale for the grade.

 

Wow...never heard of the Hern Guide, hard to believe folks can rely on that.

 

One of my clients is a doctor. He does not use nor know how to use the Internet (at least that I know of). At a minimum, it would be so easy for him to just punch up Ebay and double-check to see if the prices he is offered by Monex or Blanchard over the years are worth the price. Bullion purchases are easy to check, he can get the price daily from a newspaper. But while he had an excuse to trust the telemarketers when he bought numismatics in the 1990's because there was no Internet for most of that time that was readily accessible, he has less of an excuse today.

 

Regrettably, there are people with money who don't do their DD and/or are very trusting or stupid with their $$$. I've run into many of them in my career. They will spend weeks researching a $300 microwave oven or months checking out a car costing $30,000....but then impulsively buy penny stocks or a hot stock tip that requires $50,000 or $100,000.

 

Go figure.....

[GoldFinger1969]

My guess is that since toned coins are not the bulk of sales for most coins/mintages, that the price guides we see are for market transactions and most of those are non-toned.

This is just a guess, too, GoldFinger, but I'll guess you're right. Still, as toning is appreciated through emotions, it's incorporating irrationality into the price guides, to the degree it's getting in, and it might not be a bad idea to just be aware of that.

 

How many toned coins are there for various coins/mintages/years ? If the number is very low relative to the supply, it shouldn't distort.

 

Again, am I right in thinking that toned coinage is going to be more prevalent on smaller coins and not the more valuable/larger ones like Double Eagles

[Kurtdog]

My guess is that since toned coins are not the bulk of sales for most coins/mintages, that the price guides we see are for market transactions and most of those are non-toned.

This is just a guess, too, GoldFinger, but I'll guess you're right. Still, as toning is appreciated through emotions, it's incorporating irrationality into the price guides, to the degree it's getting in, and it might not be a bad idea to just be aware of that.

How many toned coins are there for various coins/mintages/years ? If the number is very low relative to the supply, it shouldn't distort.

 

Again, am I right in thinking that toned coinage is going to be more prevalent on smaller coins and not the more valuable/larger ones like Double Eagles

It could be anything. Just a few months ago I found a 1964 quarter asking over $600 for the toning. Not bad for a $10 coin. When well-respected dealers are pushing these, they're making more than a dent in the price guides, I'd think. Funny thing is, this well-respected dealer is a chemist, .

[jom]

Only way to 'get even' is to buy EBAY the stock and make some money on it the next time it's a BUY. PayPal is their crown jewel but the online site is doing better with 70% of all transactions using BUY IT NOW.

 

Actually, I do own eBay stock. I bought it because they own PP. So I've "been there done that".

 

Just think, for a few measly percent more, you could consign to Heritage which actually writes descriptions, images the coin, and does real work (as opposed to creating a website and using it continuously with little true overhead/work). If you can get your coins in a signature sale, you would probably receive a higher hammer than with eBay in many cases and you don't have to put up with customers directly.

 

Exactly. But it really does come down to how many "eye balls" see your listing. Does Heritage have more exposure than eBay? I dunno....

 

jom

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Exactly. But it really does come down to how many "eye balls" see your listing. Does Heritage have more exposure than eBay? I dunno....jom

 

Mark can probably tell us more on that, but I am sure that Heritage and places like that attract a more sophisticated, dedicated, but possibly smaller number of buyers than a mass site like Ebay.

 

OTOH, you don't see any phoney-baloney pricing at places like that, so a serious buyer or another dealer is more likely to spend time at an auction houses's website. You're more likely to get a steal on Ebay but also probably more likely to see irrrational bidders or stuff priced too high. And someone can always edge you out by a few bucks on the high side.

 

FWIW, on Ebay I see some Double Eagle Liberty's with as few as 10-15 people visiting the site (no bids, could be priced too high) but a Saint Gaudens Double Eagle getting a dozen or so bids as the item ends today has almost 200 visitors hitting the website.

 

So traffic depends.

[jom]

My guess is that since toned coins are not the bulk of sales for most coins/mintages, that the price guides we see are for market transactions and most of those are non-toned.

This is just a guess, too, GoldFinger, but I'll guess you're right. Still, as toning is appreciated through emotions, it's incorporating irrationality into the price guides, to the degree it's getting in, and it might not be a bad idea to just be aware of that.

 

How do you judge exactly what a coin is worth? Do you just go by the grade? Or are they other factors such as eye appeal toning or a die marriage?

 

However, let's say you are correct how is just paying for the grade of the coin NOT based on the same irrationality? I can go even farther...how is it that paying for any coin more than its intrinsic value NOT based on emotion? Why is buying for toning any different than for the grade or for a CAC sticker or an OGH slab? Isn't it all based on "emotion" or some irrationality?

 

The coin market values seem to be set by what people are willing to pay. Are some dealers "pushing" the toned market? Maybe but do you really think they are fooling anyone? It is what it is...if you like toned coins (or not) no dealer is going to fool you into liking (or disliking) toned coins. Or liking varieties or die marriages or whatever. People pay premiums for different things other than just GRADE and, frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

jom

[World Colonial]

I do not buy any US coins and do not follow most of them, though if the price of gold (or silver) gets as low as I hope, i would conside buying generic US type gold.

 

The difference in liquidity between the examples you used and those I did are very large. I5% to 20% "extra" sounds excessive for these coins but its actually not that large for a US coin generally because the coins are not exactly equal.

 

With SA or other world coins, they aren't liquid either but in the example I used, I just think the sellers are either clueless or hope their buyers are even more clueless than they are and I agree with you that there is a lack of sophistication in that market. I do not see any informed buyer falling for such an obvious trap and have "called out" this practice on that other forum's message board numerous times.

 

I see the same thing in other world coins also. Right now on Ebay, there is a Spanish 1727 Segovia PGCS MS-63 2R on offer for $1499. I own three others like it. In my opinion, this coin is worth at most $650 and probably somewhat less. It isn't common but this denomnation from the 1720's is the most common of the entire series and it isn't rare at all, even in this grade. Anyone who buys this coin at that price is going to be hopelessly buried in it.

 

On the Hern Guide, it has the same problems as other annual price guides especially for world coins, but its just that its easier to verify recent prices than most other markets. The real price guide except for the most common and lowest priced items is CoinGuideSA.com.

[World Colonial]

How do you judge exactly what a coin is worth? Do you just go by the grade? Or are they other factors such as eye appeal toning or a die marriage?

 

However, let's say you are correct how is just paying for the grade of the coin NOT based on the same irrationality? I can go even farther...how is it that paying for any coin more than its intrinsic value NOT based on emotion? Why is buying for toning any different than for the grade or for a CAC sticker or an OGH slab? Isn't it all based on "emotion" or some irrationality?

 

The coin market values seem to be set by what people are willing to pay. Are some dealers "pushing" the toned market? Maybe but do you really think they are fooling anyone? It is what it is...if you like toned coins (or not) no dealer is going to fool you into liking (or disliking) toned coins. Or liking varieties or die marriages or whatever. People pay premiums for different things other than just GRADE and, frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

jom

 

I agree with you. The pricing of coins is based upon emotion, not reason. Its not like anyone actually actually needs a coin. It is a luxury item. I also do not see the price guides (whichever one someone wants to use) having much to do with actual prices at all. Its a topic which has been covered here many times.

 

In some instances at least with US coins, the price guides are or might be based upon actual prices. Maybe the weekly guides because there is a limited lag. With others, the only reason the price guides are "accurate" is because the coin is priced at the guide due to the lack of any other reference point. This is going to be true for lower or the lowest priced material at "retail" like in a B&M shop. And in the instance of the SA Hern Guide and Krause, many (if not most) of the prices are imaginary and invented. Someone just made them up. There is zero evidence that coins sell for those prices or ever did.

[GoldFinger1969]

How do you judge exactly what a coin is worth? Do you just go by the grade? Or are they other factors such as eye appeal toning or a die marriage?

 

Excellent question, I guess that's the nature of any hoppy...since no 2 coins are EXACTLY alike (unlike streams of income from financial instruments) and these are TANGIBLE pieces of property (not intangibles like mutual funds etc.), then you do have an emotional element to this hobby. It's why we are all posting...and buying and selling....and reading....and going to coin shows.

 

Like alot of things, it's fun. And if something is FUN, you are willing to pay for it and some people are willing to pay more than others (see, StubHub, Super Bowl Tickets ).

 

However, let's say you are correct how is just paying for the grade of the coin NOT based on the same irrationality? I can go even farther...how is it that paying for any coin more than its intrinsic value NOT based on emotion? Why is buying for toning any different than for the grade or for a CAC sticker or an OGH slab? Isn't it all based on "emotion" or some irrationality?

 

Agreed...see my comments above.

 

Anything peculiar or desirable about an OGH that I missed Aside from maybe predating counterfeit eras ??

 

The coin market values seem to be set by what people are willing to pay. Are some dealers "pushing" the toned market? Maybe but do you really think they are fooling anyone? It is what it is...if you like toned coins (or not) no dealer is going to fool you into liking (or disliking) toned coins. Or liking varieties or die marriages or whatever. People pay premiums for different things other than just GRADE and, frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that.jom

 

I think the entire rating/slab thing which PCGS and NCG got into hot water for (totally BS, IMO) is more curious. Hey, I think paying 150% premiums for silver coins with "MS70" on them is not smart compared to paying 60% premiums for MS69 or even 10% premiums for uncirculated mint which could be MS 68, 69, or even 70.

 

Having said that, have I bought some of them for myself and for others as gifts ? Sure. But would I make a huge $$$ investment in them, like I would Liberty or Saint Double Eagles ? No way.

 

But that's me. I'm watching the Super Bowl from home, some of my friends are paying thousands to go in person.

[Eric Hazen]

Prices have been rising quickly. Just keep an eye on http://www.pcgs.com/prices/Frame.aspx?type=coinindex&filename=mpeace to see the trend. I've been flipping a few for the past 3 to 4 months and taking advantage of this trend to clear out the coins that I never seem to look at.

 

Since I know prices are moving up I'll pay going rate but I don't want to buy into a coin that won't break even util 6 months down the road if the trend continues. I'll pass on that kind of purchase.

[MarkFeld]

Prices have been rising quickly. Just keep an eye on http://www.pcgs.com/prices/Frame.aspx?type=coinindex&filename=mpeace to see the trend. I've been flipping a few for the past 3 to 4 months and taking advantage of this trend to clear out the coins that I never seem to look at.

 

Since I know prices are moving up I'll pay going rate but I don't want to buy into a coin that won't break even util 6 months down the road if the trend continues. I'll pass on that kind of purchase.

 

The link shows roughly a 3% rise in the past year - not what I would term "Prices have been rising quickly". Addiitionally, typically that 3% is not enough to cover the buy/sell spread which most collectors face.

 

And you don't know that "prices are moving up" - only that they have moved up. There is a big difference between the two.

[Kurtdog]

How do you judge exactly what a coin is worth?

I try to judge what the market is willing to pay for it. Shall I go into further detail, or will that suffice?

 

Do you just go by the grade?

No, not at all.

 

Or are they other factors such as eye appeal toning or a die marriage?

Die marriage? What would impel you to bring up something like that? I don't think that should influence the grade of the coin, if that's what you're wondering at. I suppose I can imagine cases wherein it might affect the value of a coin. On eye appeal and toning, again, let’s get our finger on the pulse of that market. That’s, again, what I'm trying to do.

 

However, let's say you are correct how is just paying for the grade of the coin NOT based on the same irrationality?

Hold on a minute. Are you saying I’m saying just pay for the grade without regard to any market factors? If it should mean anything to you, I’m not saying that. When you assess the grade, you assess the physical condition of the coin, as rated against when the coin was minted. That's what makes the grade meaningful. As the criteria you’re using to do that are rationally-related to that end, that’s what makes the grade rational, as well. Otherwise, the grade is but virtually anything. It could be driven by the market, and marketing, as is the case in, drumroll, a market grade. A market grade has no meaning outside of the market value of the coin. Outside of that, it’s nothing. A grade is the physical condition the coin is in. Again, that’s what gives the grade meaning.

 

I can go even farther...how is it that paying for any coin more than its intrinsic value NOT based on emotion?

It depends on what that “more than” is. Paying the market value of the grade is rational. Paying in excess of that, it depends. Are you paying for toning? That’s emotional. A variety, an error, anything where your head is in the game? That’s rational.

 

Why is buying for toning any different than for the grade or for a CAC sticker or an OGH slab? Isn't it all based on "emotion" or some irrationality?

I hope I said enough to this point for you to be able to figure this one out for yourself. I mean, how I’d answer this one.

 

The coin market values seem to be set by what people are willing to pay. Are some dealers "pushing" the toned market? Maybe but do you really think they are fooling anyone? It is what it is...if you like toned coins (or not) no dealer is going to fool you into liking (or disliking) toned coins. Or liking varieties or die marriages or whatever. People pay premiums for different things other than just GRADE and, frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Well, while this may come as a surprise to you, neither do I see anything wrong with that. Honestly.

[e1cnr]

Since I have not seen anyone mention it - some buyers just have unrealistic expectations of what they can get at a certain price. MS65 Saints are not bullion. If you see something sell at a very low price, possibly the purchaser got a very good deal - not that is the new market level.

 

Please tell us what your offer was Goldfinger....

 

 

I have noticed that there are billions more coins available than I have money to purchase... when I see something priced more than I am willing to pay, I move on.. I learned in economics about supply and demand - high prices lead to low demand, although all that is required is demand by one to make a purchase.

 

I have heard some sellers say that they realize the item is worth less than they are asking, but they are actually 'showcasing' parts of their collection. Other sellers have everything priced high, but if they need any money, they have to sell at some time (some old time dealers have accumulated millions of dollars of stuff through the years -> buying Gem Morgans for $3 in the 60's, sealed bags for a few thousand...)

 

 

If you truly are a collector, you must realize by now that there is always a collector with more money to spend than you....

[TonerGuy]

Actually I just had a seller cut the price more than I even asked for.

 

He came off the price of 3 coins by 40%... $1100 discount. I was blown away.

 

Other than that - with toners - most sellers have very unrealistic prices of what their coins are worth.

 

I really wish someone would come up with a price list for toners... I might pay more for some coins but it would add stability to the market.

 

There will never be a hard and fast price guide for toned coins because every piece is fairly unique, and even with common trends, there are many variations (too many to put in a single guide). The best way to price these is to examine the market in depth for a prolonged period of coin, learning what adds and detracts from values, and using experience to determine a multiplier of FMV (be it 1 or otherwise).

 

Also, many of the sellers are asking for high prices because every now and then someone bites. It doesn't take but one bite with a BIN. After having seen some of the ridiculous prices that some coins have sold for, I cannot blame others for wanting to test the waters.

 

I dont agree with that line of logic...True there are unique coins but is it really that different then you start adding + and * designations on to coins as well as the green beans and the gold beans...

 

Its all rather complicated now... How would you price an MS 65+* "gold bean" 1944-S Walking Liberty Half ?

 

Pricing requires skill - I dont see pricing toners requiring any greater skill then the above mentioned coin.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Actually I just had a seller cut the price more than I even asked for.

 

He came off the price of 3 coins by 40%... $1100 discount. I was blown away.

 

Other than that - with toners - most sellers have very unrealistic prices of what their coins are worth.

 

I really wish someone would come up with a price list for toners... I might pay more for some coins but it would add stability to the market.

 

There will never be a hard and fast price guide for toned coins because every piece is fairly unique, and even with common trends, there are many variations (too many to put in a single guide). The best way to price these is to examine the market in depth for a prolonged period of coin, learning what adds and detracts from values, and using experience to determine a multiplier of FMV (be it 1 or otherwise).

 

Also, many of the sellers are asking for high prices because every now and then someone bites. It doesn't take but one bite with a BIN. After having seen some of the ridiculous prices that some coins have sold for, I cannot blame others for wanting to test the waters.

 

I dont agree with that line of logic...True there are unique coins but is it really that different then you start adding + and * designations on to coins as well as the green beans and the gold beans...

 

Its all rather complicated now... How would you price an MS 65+* "gold bean" 1944-S Walking Liberty Half ?

 

Pricing requires skill - I dont see pricing toners requiring any greater skill then the above mentioned coin.

 

The problem with your thoughts is that there is to much logic used.....

[MarkFeld]

Actually I just had a seller cut the price more than I even asked for.

 

He came off the price of 3 coins by 40%... $1100 discount. I was blown away.

 

Other than that - with toners - most sellers have very unrealistic prices of what their coins are worth.

 

I really wish someone would come up with a price list for toners... I might pay more for some coins but it would add stability to the market.

 

There will never be a hard and fast price guide for toned coins because every piece is fairly unique, and even with common trends, there are many variations (too many to put in a single guide). The best way to price these is to examine the market in depth for a prolonged period of coin, learning what adds and detracts from values, and using experience to determine a multiplier of FMV (be it 1 or otherwise).

 

Also, many of the sellers are asking for high prices because every now and then someone bites. It doesn't take but one bite with a BIN. After having seen some of the ridiculous prices that some coins have sold for, I cannot blame others for wanting to test the waters.

 

I dont agree with that line of logic...True there are unique coins but is it really that different then you start adding + and * designations on to coins as well as the green beans and the gold beans...

 

Its all rather complicated now... How would you price an MS 65+* "gold bean" 1944-S Walking Liberty Half ?

 

Pricing requires skill - I dont see pricing toners requiring any greater skill then the above mentioned coin.

 

You didn't ask me, but I would price the 1944-S Walker as an MS66. Amd there was nothing too complicated about that.

[GoldFinger1969]

Since I have not seen anyone mention it - some buyers just have unrealistic expectations of what they can get at a certain price. MS65 Saints are not bullion. If you see something sell at a very low price, possibly the purchaser got a very good deal - not that is the new market level. Please tell us what your offer was Goldfinger....

 

You mean on the coin I just purchased ? $1,800....

 

If you mean offers on Ebay for MS 65s, they are all over the map.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Its all rather complicated now... How would you price an MS 65+* "gold bean" 1944-S Walking Liberty Half ?

 

Not only that, you're gonna lose all but the serious amateur and the professionals. That's like a calculus question almost !!

 

I understand that greater detail and differentiation are important, especially to the owner of the coin, but you differentiate TOO MUCH and then you no longer have even semi-liquid markets, because all pricing is dichotomous.

[TonerGuy]

 

You didn't ask me, but I would price the 1944-S Walker as an MS66. Amd there was nothing too complicated about that.

 

And I think that would be fair BUT you dont know if there's someone out that that would be emotional about the * or the gold bean and want to pay even more. So you might not maximize your profit, but I know that is not always your top concern anyway. However another dealer might send it slightly north of MS66 money and make more...

 

I dont think anyone here would argue that price guides apply across the board to all coins... which is my point. Why they dont apply across the board is really immaterial isnt it ?

 

And perhaps a toner price guide might provide a range instead of a price...

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Just to give an example of how pricing can differ at a B&M place: I went to 2 local coin dealers before Christmas and got quotes on the 2013 Proof/Reverse Proof Silver Eagle set (present for my nephew). You can generally get it for about $160-$170 online, Ebay, and as it turned out at one of the dealers.

 

The other dealer was asking $210 !!

[coinman_23885]

Just think, for a few measly percent more, you could consign to Heritage which actually writes descriptions, images the coin, and does real work (as opposed to creating a website and using it continuously with little true overhead/work). If you can get your coins in a signature sale, you would probably receive a higher hammer than with eBay in many cases and you don't have to put up with customers directly.

 

Exactly. But it really does come down to how many "eye balls" see your listing. Does Heritage have more exposure than eBay? I dunno....

 

jom

 

 

Fair enough, but it is the number of "quality eye balls" and not absolute number total of eye balls that matter on higher end coins. I would say, on average, the pockets of those attending major signature auctions at Heritage like Long Beach, FUN, etc. are much deeper and the collector base more sophisticated, again on average.

[Kurtdog]

You didn't ask me, but I would price the 1944-S Walker as an MS66. Amd there was nothing too complicated about that.

And I think that would be fair BUT you dont know if there's someone out that that would be emotional about the * or the gold bean and want to pay even more. So you might not maximize your profit, but I know that is not always your top concern anyway. However another dealer might send it slightly north of MS66 money and make more...

 

I dont think anyone here would argue that price guides apply across the board to all coins... which is my point. Why they dont apply across the board is really immaterial isnt it ?

 

And perhaps a toner price guide might provide a range instead of a price...

How do you quantify toning? For that matter, how do you quantify pedigree, or any other market grading criteria? There's your issue. You can’t do it. These are irrational criteria. That’s why. The best you can do is describe what’s appealing to you. That’s what the TPGs and CAC are doing. That’s all they’re doing.

 

All to say, I agree with our esteemed colleague, Mark Feld, on this one. Some things are just better left to the market.

[GoldFinger1969]

Just think, for a few measly percent more, you could consign to Heritage which actually writes descriptions, images the coin, and does real work (as opposed to creating a website and using it continuously with little true overhead/work). If you can get your coins in a signature sale, you would probably receive a higher hammer than with eBay in many cases and you don't have to put up with customers directly.

Exactly. But it really does come down to how many "eye balls" see your listing. Does Heritage have more exposure than eBay? I dunno....jom

Fair enough, but it is the number of "quality eye balls" and not absolute number total of eye balls that matter on higher end coins. I would say, on average, the pockets of those attending major signature auctions at Heritage like Long Beach, FUN, etc. are much deeper and the collector base more sophisticated, again on average.

 

FWIW, I believe the major auction places like Heritage have hundreds of thousands of registered dealers/members. How many actually turn out for any 1 auction or even during the year, I can't say.

 

So while their absolute numbers may pale in comparision to Ebay's registered user base, their dedicated coin enthusiast ranks who actually turn out for coins in the aggregate and/or a specific coin might dwarf Ebay's numbers.

 

Put out the right Saint-Gauden on Heritage or other sites via e-mail or whatever notification process they use, and I wouldn't be suprised to see dozens or hundreds of bidders. Maybe more !!

 

I note that the UHR 1907 Saint Gaudens up on Ebay had several hundred offers, though the asking price of $4 MM was still unmet last I checked.

[GoldFinger1969]

Went To NYC-area dealer with a friend today...lots of inventory, been around for many years, had buyers/sellers in the shop when I was there. So not someone who just throws off quotes willy-nilly.

 

He had a few 1923, 1927, and 1928 Saint Gaudens DE's: MS63's @ $1,700....MS64's @ $1,800....MS65's @ $2100 (I'm rounding off a few bucks to make it easy to remember down the line ).

 

I see those prices as generally being in-line with what I am seeing online at Ebay and some online auction places (going by final price to buying, including fees/commissions).

 

So the dealer was pretty much at-market, nothing too out of kilter, from what I could see. All the coins were slabbed, too.

 

BTW, I do see some MS65 1927's on Ebay but they are going for $2,879 and $3,160. The latter is actually a 65+; both also have a Green CAC sticker.

 

I understand those should sell at a premium (esp. the "+" which I guess could have been a "66")....but if the market is at about $2,000 give-or-take, those premiums seem high to me -- what say you ?

 

And I also see 'regular' MS65's on Ebay asking $2,300 - $2,700 and they don't seem to be getting any activity. Not sure why these people think they can get that price if the only bidding is for below $2K.

 

I guess they could be non-desperate sellers; if they get their price....great....if not...they keep it.

 

 

[TonerGuy]

 

All to say, I agree with our esteemed colleague, Mark Feld, on this one. Some things are just better left to the market.

 

The market is setting the prices. Thats not the issue. What I am saying is that there are already forces occurring in the toned coin market. Its just a matter of quantifying and recorded the prices.

 

Anyone who studies/buys/sells toners of all types generally knows the range of prices of their specialty. Its the newbies that get killed. I dont collect Morgans - if I tried to buy a monster toned Morgan - well I might not even know what one is but I certainly wouldnt know how to price it. But I assure you there are people that do.

 

I see people buying toned Peace $ on Ebay and at auction that they will be buried in for years. But if they had the help of a price guide they may not over pay.

[MarkFeld]

 

All to say, I agree with our esteemed colleague, Mark Feld, on this one. Some things are just better left to the market.

 

The market is setting the prices. Thats not the issue. What I am saying is that there are already forces occurring in the toned coin market. Its just a matter of quantifying and recorded the prices.

 

Anyone who studies/buys/sells toners of all types generally knows the range of prices of their specialty. Its the newbies that get killed. I dont collect Morgans - if I tried to buy a monster toned Morgan - well I might not even know what one is but I certainly wouldnt know how to price it. But I assure you there are people that do.

 

I see people buying toned Peace $ on Ebay and at auction that they will be buried in for years. But if they had the help of a price guide they may not over pay.

 

What would you have the price guide say - "MS65 common date Morgan Dollars with amazing color can sell for between $600 and $6000"?

 

Amy range that would cover the majority of coins and prices they might bring would have to be so large as to be essentially useless.

[jpcienkus]

Went To NYC-area dealer with a friend today...lots of inventory, been around for many years, had buyers/sellers in the shop when I was there. So not someone who just throws off quotes willy-nilly.

 

He had a few 1923, 1927, and 1928 Saint Gaudens DE's: MS63's @ $1,700....MS64's @ $1,800....MS65's @ $2100 (I'm rounding off a few bucks to make it easy to remember down the line ).

 

I see those prices as generally being in-line with what I am seeing online at Ebay and some online auction places (going by final price to buying, including fees/commissions).

 

So the dealer was pretty much at-market, nothing too out of kilter, from what I could see. All the coins were slabbed, too.

 

BTW, I do see some MS65 1927's on Ebay but they are going for $2,879 and $3,160. The latter is actually a 65+; both also have a Green CAC sticker.

 

I understand those should sell at a premium (esp. the "+" which I guess could have been a "66")....but if the market is at about $2,000 give-or-take, those premiums seem high to me -- what say you ?

 

And I also see 'regular' MS65's on Ebay asking $2,300 - $2,700 and they don't seem to be getting any activity. Not sure why these people think they can get that price if the only bidding is for below $2K.

 

I guess they could be non-desperate sellers; if they get their price....great....if not...they keep it.

 

 

In your example, the "+" just means its better than a 65, but not quite a 66. They do indeed go for premiums. Some will agree they are worth a premium and some will not.

 

As for CAC sticker, I believe they do add some premium to the coin. Some will agree this is correct, others will not.

 

[MarkFeld]

Went To NYC-area dealer with a friend today...lots of inventory, been around for many years, had buyers/sellers in the shop when I was there. So not someone who just throws off quotes willy-nilly.

 

He had a few 1923, 1927, and 1928 Saint Gaudens DE's: MS63's @ $1,700....MS64's @ $1,800....MS65's @ $2100 (I'm rounding off a few bucks to make it easy to remember down the line ).

 

I see those prices as generally being in-line with what I am seeing online at Ebay and some online auction places (going by final price to buying, including fees/commissions).

 

So the dealer was pretty much at-market, nothing too out of kilter, from what I could see. All the coins were slabbed, too.

 

BTW, I do see some MS65 1927's on Ebay but they are going for $2,879 and $3,160. The latter is actually a 65+; both also have a Green CAC sticker.

 

I understand those should sell at a premium (esp. the "+" which I guess could have been a "66")....but if the market is at about $2,000 give-or-take, those premiums seem high to me -- what say you ?

 

And I also see 'regular' MS65's on Ebay asking $2,300 - $2,700 and they don't seem to be getting any activity. Not sure why these people think they can get that price if the only bidding is for below $2K.

 

I guess they could be non-desperate sellers; if they get their price....great....if not...they keep it.

 

 

In your example, the "+" just means its better than a 65, but not quite a 66. They do indeed go for premiums. Some will agree they are worth a premium and some will not.

 

As for CAC sticker, I believe they do add some premium to the coin. Some will agree this is correct, others will not.

 

MS65 and higher CAC certified Saints have been subject to significantly higher sight unseen bids than non-CAC examples for a long time. The premium is certainly there, whether everyone acknowledges and/or agrees with it or not.