Old Gold Experts - What all is wrong with this coin?

[wdrob]

 

Could some of the 'in the know' old gold folks tell me what all is wrong with this coin. What jumps right out and tells you problem, if anything?

 

 

btw; I would consider this an XF40 -XF-45 or XF Details. Am I way off?

 

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Bill

 

[BillJones]

I am on an iPad, the pictures I get are sometimes not accurate, but I have some concerns about putty. The dull ares look too smooth to me. The coin has some wear, and this issue and type are known for weak strikes. Still dull AND smooth don't look right to me.

[coinman_23885]

I agree with BIllJones that the surfaces look off and are too smooth especially for the grade and very dull. Moreover, there appear to be areas that look somewhat cloudy on my monitor or discolored. This makes me lean towards a putty job as well.

 

Edited to add: I don't think the services would holder it with a details grade as a puttied coin. The putty can be removed, but who knows what's underneath. In some cases, putty can be rather innocuous and used to cover up marks and minor rub to make a circulated coin appear a higher grade or even MS to a novice. These coins could theoretically grade in the future in normal holders. Other times, the putty can cover up more severe problems.

[wdrob]

 

The putty can be removed, but who knows what's underneath.

 

What method would be used to remove putty?

 

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Could some of the 'in the know' old gold folks tell me what all is wrong with this coin. What jumps right out and tells you problem, if anything?

Listen, you, I may be old, but at least I'm still handsome!

 

Oh, you were saying. Yeah, the surface is somewhat dead. It doesn't appear to these old eyes to be polished, though.

[wdrob]

 

Listen, you, I may be old, but at least I'm still handsome!

 

Well ..... If you say so.

 

Yes I would have to agree that it is close to dead. I think the putty suggestion is probably accurate.

 

 

[Mark T]

The putty can be removed, but who knows what's underneath.

 

What method would be used to remove putty?

 

 

 

I dont think you can remove the putty without damaging the coin .

[coinman_23885]

The putty can be removed, but who knows what's underneath.

 

What method would be used to remove putty?

 

An acetone wash will usually remove the putty. Acetone will not harm the coin itself, but I cannot guarantee what's under the surface of the putty so there could be concealed problems. This is something that you could easily do yourself without fear of destroying the coin. If an acetone wash doesn't work, a light dip may work. If you would like to hire professionals PCGS Restoration service specifically advertises this service, and I think NCS probably has it as well (I cannot imagine that they wouldn't). Personally, since there is no real way to screw the coin up with acetone, I would try that first, but that's just me.

[coinman_23885]

The putty can be removed, but who knows what's underneath.

 

What method would be used to remove putty?

 

 

 

I dont think you can remove the putty without damaging the coin .

 

If you have seen coins with putty that were damaged after conservation, it is more than likely that the damage was already there and that the putty was placed there to conceal the damage (and that putty removal did not necessarily cause the damage). This is especially true if you use acetone. That shouldn't damage the coin, and usually will do the trick.

[wdrob]

 

OK Kenny. I will wait until I get the coin and probably post better pictures. I bought it for just over melt and it is in a PCGS Genuine holder. When you look up the cert it says 92 -Cleaned.

 

I studied those pictures and I just could not see scratches that might have indicated a harsh cleaning so that is why I posed the question the way I did. You and Bill were probably dead on as to what is going on with the coin.

 

I figured it would still be an xf, or thereabout, even after the removal of putty unless the problems are seriously bad. The putty may be there to try and hide the scratches from a harsh cleaning. If that is the case then I am in it not to far above melt. I should have it by weeks end so I guess I will know more then.

 

Thanks for all the input

 

Bill

 

 

[coinman_23885]

If you don't mind, I would love to see pictures when you have the coin in hand. Cleaning can sometimes cause the coin to have a dull appearance, but the surfaces still strike me as too smooth for the grade and with the discoloration, I'm still thinking that it has a putty job on top of it. If you purchased the coin around melt, there really is no downside assuming that precious metal price have stabilized so you should be okay there.

[MarkFeld]

OK Kenny. I will wait until I get the coin and probably post better pictures. I bought it for just over melt and it is in a PCGS Genuine holder. When you look up the cert it says 92 -Cleaned.

 

I studied those pictures and I just could not see scratches that might have indicated a harsh cleaning so that is why I posed the question the way I did. You and Bill were probably dead on as to what is going on with the coin.

 

I figured it would still be an xf, or thereabout, even after the removal of putty unless the problems are seriously bad. The putty may be there to try and hide the scratches from a harsh cleaning. If that is the case then I am in it not to far above melt. I should have it by weeks end so I guess I will know more then.

 

Thanks for all the input

 

Bill

 

 

Many people associate cleaning with obvious, heavy hairlines. Coins can be cleaned in a variety of different ways. And in many instances, they have an unnatural appearance, but do not exhibit conspicuous hairlines. One other thing to consider is that often, cleaning is not apparent in images.

 

 

[Mark T]

The putty can be removed, but who knows what's underneath.

 

What method would be used to remove putty?

 

 

 

I dont think you can remove the putty without damaging the coin .

 

If you have seen coins with putty that were damaged after conservation, it is more than likely that the damage was already there and that the putty was placed there to conceal the damage (and that putty removal did not necessarily cause the damage). This is especially true if you use acetone. That shouldn't damage the coin, and usually will do the trick.

 

 

That acetone seems to do the trick for a lot of coin issues !!

I have had a few certified puttied Eagles in my day . Some were obvious other not as much.

 

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Many people associate cleaning with obvious, heavy hairlines. Coins can be cleaned in a variety of different ways. And in many instances, they have an unnatural appearance, but do not exhibit conspicuous hairlines. One other thing to consider is that often, cleaning is not apparent in images.

 

Good point Mark and I am well familiar with your example. I still have a Stone Mountain Comm that came back cleaned from quite a while back (getting close to a year ago). I took it out of the UNC Details Cleaned holder and still to this day have a very difficult time seeing the hairlines. You really have to have optimum lighting and the piece tilted just right in order to see them, and even then they are very faint.

 

Gold fell $35.00 or so today so I guess I am in it further than I wanted to be but that is OK. Gold will come back up I am sure.

 

Kenny, before I use any acetone on the coin I will take the best pictures that I can while also trying to be as unflattering to the coin as possible so I can get further opinions from all of you. I just want to end up with a XF or so circulated piece that has as much luster as possible without going beyond a non destructive method. I don't even care if it will ever again see the inside of a certified holder, but if it could that would be nice, but not necessary.

 

Bill

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Many people associate cleaning with obvious, heavy hairlines. Coins can be cleaned in a variety of different ways. And in many instances, they have an unnatural appearance, but do not exhibit conspicuous hairlines. One other thing to consider is that often, cleaning is not apparent in images.

 

Good point Mark and I am well familiar with your example. I still have a Stone Mountain Comm that came back cleaned from quite a while back (getting close to a year ago). I took it out of the UNC Details Cleaned holder and still to this day have a very difficult time seeing the hairlines. You really have to have optimum lighting and the piece tilted just right in order to see them, and even then they are very faint.

 

Gold fell $35.00 or so today so I guess I am in it further than I wanted to be but that is OK. Gold will come back up I am sure.

 

Kenny, before I use any acetone on the coin I will take the best pictures that I can while also trying to be as unflattering to the coin as possible so I can get further opinions from all of you. I just want to end up with a XF or so circulated piece that has as much luster as possible without going beyond a non destructive method. I don't even care if it will ever again see the inside of a certified holder, but if it could that would be nice, but not necessary.

 

Bill

 

 

In addition to or instead of looking for hairlines, check for an unnatural sheen or luster to the coin. Often, that is apparent, when hairlines are not, and can be easier to see, even at a distance.

[$ilverHawk]

Many people associate cleaning with obvious, heavy hairlines. Coins can be cleaned in a variety of different ways. And in many instances, they have an unnatural appearance, but do not exhibit conspicuous hairlines. One other thing to consider is that often, cleaning is not apparent in images.

 

Good point Mark and I am well familiar with your example. I still have a Stone Mountain Comm that came back cleaned from quite a while back (getting close to a year ago). I took it out of the UNC Details Cleaned holder and still to this day have a very difficult time seeing the hairlines. You really have to have optimum lighting and the piece tilted just right in order to see them, and even then they are very faint.

 

Gold fell $35.00 or so today so I guess I am in it further than I wanted to be but that is OK. Gold will come back up I am sure.

 

Kenny, before I use any acetone on the coin I will take the best pictures that I can while also trying to be as unflattering to the coin as possible so I can get further opinions from all of you. I just want to end up with a XF or so circulated piece that has as much luster as possible without going beyond a non destructive method. I don't even care if it will ever again see the inside of a certified holder, but if it could that would be nice, but not necessary.

 

Bill

 

 

In addition to or instead of looking for hairlines, check for an unnatural sheen or luster to the coin. Often, that is apparent, when hairlines are not, and can be easier to see, even at a distance.

 

Net VF altered surfaces, cleaning.

 

Carl

[wdrob]

I just received the coin and it is almost like they sent me the wrong one. This thing looks much better in hand. Cartwheel luster, much better details than that picture I posted shows. That was a very bad picture they had up for that coin.

 

I will try and post some pictures in just a few minutes (maybe longer) with it still in the holder and then I may remove it from the holder after I get some further opinions.

 

Regardless of the outcome, this is actually a very nice looking piece and not anywhere near as dull as the other picture represented. Nice gold color. I am glad I took the chance.

 

 

[wdrob]

OK. Here it is before and after cracking it from the holder. The holder would not give in very easy and I may have added a couple of scratches from the breaking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

The last set of images makes the coin look unnatural/cleaned.

[wdrob]

 

I had it tilted just a bit so the details that you can see in hand would show up in the picture. I also was using two diffused lights but the one on the right was angled more toward the coin than the left light.

 

 

[wdrob]

Here is one with the coin flat and out of the holder.

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

The cloudy discolored areas look like a putty job to me. The coin also appears to have an unnatural sheen/color about it. If it does, it could be indicative of, among other things, a cleaning. I would bathe it in acetone to get rid of the putty and then reassess.

[wdrob]

Thanks Kenny.

 

I have a gallon of acetone on the way home.

 

Acetone will not effect the luster that is there, correct? I have never worked with a gold coin but I hear they are pretty resilient.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Thanks Kenny.

 

I have a gallon of acetone on the way home.

 

Acetone will not effect the luster that is there, correct? I have never worked with a gold coin but I hear they are pretty resilient.

 

 

Just make sure that it is pure acetone (and do read the label to make sure that there are no additives). Pure acetone will not harm the coin. Rather, acetone serves as a organic/polar solvent, meaning that any organic surface contaminants should dissolve readily in it. If there is damage to the coin, it is present there now. The acetone will only remove the surface contaminants so that you can see the coin's true surface. Rinse thoroughly when you are done. I use distilled water whenever giving a coin an acetone bath or in very rare case, dipping it.

[wdrob]

 

The coin looks so much better in hand. These pictures make it look 10 lbs heavier.

 

 

 

I don't know how long is to long to soak in acetone but I stopped after 15 minutes or so.

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

The coin looks so much better in hand. These pictures make it look 10 lbs heavier.

I don't know how long is to long to soak in acetone but I stopped after 15 minutes or so.

 

I still see some traces of putty, but I think it is looking some better. Try using your finger and gently rubbing (or cotton ball/swab) to see if you can rub off the rest. Just be careful not to add hairlines if you use something other than your hand. With regards to soaking, you can soak it longer (you won't hurt it). That's why acetone is by far one of my favorite conservation methods for non-copper coins: You really cannot damage the coin.

[wdrob]

Ahh. Ok. Then I will put it back in there for a while.

 

It has a very nice gold look but the pictures just do not show it very well because the white balance is off a bit. I tried Auto White Balance on that last picture and it got closer to the actual look.

 

Back to the lab.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Ahh. Ok. Then I will put it back in there for a while.

 

It has a very nice gold look but the pictures just do not show it very well because the white balance is off a bit. I tried Auto White Balance on that last picture and it got closer to the actual look.

 

Back to the lab.

 

 

P.S. to clarify, whenever working with any chemical, I always suggest using a well ventilated space and using gloves.

[wdrob]

Actually I am in the small bathroom and between the fumes and the smoke from my cigar -- this is getting pretty rough!

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

I think the soak may be over with. I really don't see it needing to get any better than this, imo.

 

The amount of scratches, gouges, or whatever you wish to call them was really not a reason to put putty on that coin since it would have been limited by strike and wear anyway. What a waste of time on both accounts.

 

I think it looks pretty good now. Of-course I can see it in hand and not magnified like these pictures and the color and luster is there and actually much nicer than the following photo would lead one to believe.

 

I think it might could actually grade XF details free now. At least VF details free but from comparing to photograde I am seeing XF.

 

 

 

 

 

See any difference?