1652 Pine Tree Shilling Noe-23 struck over another silver coin?

[mimid]

Just bought a 1652 Pine Tree Shilling Noe-23, Crosby 16-M. Rarity 6+ (URS-5).

The obverse appears to be struck over another silver coin with what appears to be a scolloped edge showing strongly under and between the letters M A S and lightly between the letters T S. While looking at other contemporary New England silver coins that may have been the underlaying coin I found a photo of an 1658 Lord Baltimore Shilling with a very similar underlaying scolloped edge. Since the Pine Tree was struck between the years 1667 and 1682 it may be that both coins used the same contemporary coin as a convenient silver blank.

 

Does anyone have any insight into what I'm seeing on this 1652 Pine Tree Shilling?

 

[BillJones]

Perhaps you could show us the whole coin ...

 

Many of the Massachusetts silver coins were made from Spanish silver. It is possible that the Massachusetts minters took a shortcut and just rolled out a Spanish piece and cut it down to size. I'm not sure when the milled Spanish coinage started. I could see this happening with a milled Spanish two bits, but I'm not so sure about a cob given the thickness.

 

The Lord Baltimore situation seems less likely to me. Those coins were made at the Tower of London mint and shipped here. Although the English did recycle other countries coins now and then, it was a constant practice from what I've seen.

 

[mimid]

I've posted the reverse of the Pine Tree. I couldn't see any sign of another coin on this side.

Thanks for the info about a spanish milled coin as the possible host. I'll see if I can identify a spanish contemporary with that sort of edge marking.

It did occur to me that the shape of the arc of the under coin looked as though it must have been smaller. It hadn't occurred to me that it may have been a smaller coin rolled to the diameter needed.

Thanks!

[CaptHenway]

Looks like just clash marks to me.

[JIM F.]

Perhaps a counterfeiter used another coin as a blank? Probably unlikely, but thought I'd through out the idea. Thanks for posting.

[CoinRaritiesOnline-migrati]

The mark shown on the Maryland Lord Baltimore Shilling is a clash mark present on the overwhelming majority of examples. It is always in the exact same spot, so it cannot be a remnant of an undertype.

 

And, as Bill pointed out, those were struck at the Tower in London, while the Pine Tree was made here.

[CoinRaritiesOnline-migrati]

Re the Pine, what you are observing is also present in the same place on the 2nd specimen of Noe-23 in the Ford sale in 2005 - so it has to be clashing:

 

 

 

 

 

[Conder101]

What I'm seeing are just clashmarks

[mimid]

Thank you CRO for finding and posting the second example of the Noe-23 with the same markings.

 

Yup, it's clash marks.