CAC coin reports

[Proudtoown]

What do you think about CAC reports not providing all the information to the public? CAC coins carry a nice premium on them most of the time, so by having some important information like how many coins were submitted to CAC for certification vs. the number rejected could give some people an advatage when purchasing or selling. This months RNA (all copyrights belong to them, this is just a short quote from them), list for example Capped Bust 1809-1828 10 cent graded MS67 coins. There were 8 submitted to CAC and none of them were certified. By having this information, you could well be ahead of the market if you were able to get one certified. Also, by knowing for example (and this isnt a fact, just an example) that there was 500 submissions of an MS64 graded 1900 xyz coin was submitted and out of that 500, 400 were CAC stickered, then one could estimate that that 1900 xyz MS64 graded coin gets high % of passing and would not command a huge premium such as one that maybe only gets a 3% passing rate.

 

Wouldn't you liken this to a type of insider trading? I would not feel like paying that much of a premium for a CAC coin if say certain people are given that data and others are not provided the info.

 

[wheat'swheats]

Why not just use the POP report posted by CAC. I have several that are 1 of less than 5 stickered in grade and a couple are the only ones known stickered in grade. I also have the only 1914 s Lincoln with a gold sticker in any grade. with 48 in all grades. Using CAC's pop report you can see how common (very few)many of the stickers are. I don't see where the maybe population matters when you have an exact population. CAC states that approx. 40% of coins submitted pass so you can pretty much figure a close accounting using this figure.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What do you think about CAC reports not providing all the information to the public? CAC coins carry a nice premium on them most of the time, so by having some important information like how many coins were submitted to CAC for certification vs. the number rejected could give some people an advatage when purchasing or selling. This months RNA (all copyrights belong to them, this is just a short quote from them), list for example Capped Bust 1809-1828 10 cent graded MS67 coins. There were 8 submitted to CAC and none of them were certified. By having this information, you could well be ahead of the market if you were able to get one certified. Also, by knowing for example (and this isnt a fact, just an example) that there was 500 submissions of an MS64 graded 1900 xyz coin was submitted and out of that 500, 400 were CAC stickered, then one could estimate that that 1900 xyz MS64 graded coin gets high % of passing and would not command a huge premium such as one that maybe only gets a 3% passing rate.

 

Wouldn't you liken this to a type of insider trading? I would not feel like paying that much of a premium for a CAC coin if say certain people are given that data and others are not provided the info.

 

I have no animosity for or against any TPG, or FPG.

 

I am only interested in your question.

 

If I had a coin that is technically graded correctly, and has that "eye appeal" so often mentioned, and it is not encapsulated by any grading service, and is equal in all respects to a graded coin by any independent grading entity, would you buy this coin if priced the same as the encapsulated coin, or pass?

 

Is your question predicated on the coin in hand?

 

If the information was public, how exactly would this be a gamechanger that is different from a coin that has the "honor" of being the highest points in a registration list? How is it anything more than a perceived value? After all, there is no knowledge of what coins of equal stature simply have not been submitted. There is no knowledge how many times the coin was re-submitted. There is no guarantee that the opinion is correct. If the information was disclosed, how exactly would one person be well ahead of another person or the market? Would it not simply generate more submissions in the hope of being annointed, which really only benefits the grading service?

 

Would you agree the coin either stands on its own, or it does not?

 

Would you place a higher value on the encapsulated coin, if a known and respected expert numismatist offered you a raw coin of equal quality?

[Kurtdog]

John, I think all he's pointing out is, a knowledge of the rejects would be important in the marketing, to that market.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

John, I think all he's pointing out is, a knowledge of the rejects would be important in the marketing, to that market.

 

Maybe you are correct. I just don't grasp the logic that the knowledge would place someone ahead of the market, if the knowledge is released to the public.

 

The posit flaw is that unless only one, or a very small number of individuals have this knowledge, the information is not of any greater benefit. However, that would not really be releasing information to the public, would it? That would be more of a Bernie Madoff scheme, I think.

[Kurtdog]

You're trying to grasp the logic of market grading? Good luck.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

You're trying to grasp the logic of market grading? Good luck.

 

[michael]

why dont you e mail john albanese and ask him?? he is open to all questions and will answer yours too if you e mail him

 

please see below

 

 

 

CAC Recent Questions

Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?

 

Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

 

Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

 

+++++++++++++++++Please email us at info@caccoin.com with questions, comments or suggestions and we will respond back to you as soon as possible

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

why dont you e mail john albanese and ask him?? he is open to all questions and will answer yours too if you e mail him

 

please see below

 

 

 

CAC Recent Questions

Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?

 

Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

 

Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

 

+++++++++++++++++Please email us at info@caccoin.com with questions, comments or suggestions and we will respond back to you as soon as possible

 

Good Morning Mr. Michael.

 

I think you may have responded to the wrong Post. I did not present the question, and I have no interest in the information being sought.

 

My thoughts were commenting on the logic of the reason the information was being sought.

[MarkFeld]

why dont you e mail john albanese and ask him?? he is open to all questions and will answer yours too if you e mail him

 

please see below

 

 

 

CAC Recent Questions

Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?

 

Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

 

Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

 

+++++++++++++++++Please email us at info@caccoin.com with questions, comments or suggestions and we will respond back to you as soon as possible

 

Good Morning Mr. Michael.

 

I think you may have responded to the wrong Post. I did not present the question, and I have no interest in the information being sought.

 

My thoughts were commenting on the logic of the reason the information was being sought.

 

Good Morning Mr. John.

 

I think you may have responded to the wrong post. I think Michael was replying to the OP, not you.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

why dont you e mail john albanese and ask him?? he is open to all questions and will answer yours too if you e mail him

 

please see below

 

 

 

CAC Recent Questions

Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?

 

Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

 

Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

 

+++++++++++++++++Please email us at info@caccoin.com with questions, comments or suggestions and we will respond back to you as soon as possible

 

Good Morning Mr. Michael.

 

I think you may have responded to the wrong Post. I did not present the question, and I have no interest in the information being sought.

 

My thoughts were commenting on the logic of the reason the information was being sought.

 

Good Morning Mr. John.

 

I think you may have responded to the wrong post. I think Michael was replying to the OP, not you.

 

Yes Sir, I thought he might have meant to, however he responded to my Post via the little box at the top that says "originally posted by". There was a Post 1 hour after mine, and Mr. Michael responded another hour after that, meaning he selected my Post, and did not simply generically respond to the last Post showing. I just wanted to make sure he understood that I was not throwing a bullet in the fire, and that it was someone else throwing the bullet and asking the question.

 

 

 

It is of no monumental importance, of course, but (blah blah)......

 

I get blamed enough as it is...

[michael]

why dont you e mail john albanese and ask him?? he is open to all questions and will answer yours too if you e mail him

 

please see below

 

 

 

CAC Recent Questions

Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?

 

Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

 

Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

 

+++++++++++++++++Please email us at info@caccoin.com with questions, comments or suggestions and we will respond back to you as soon as possible

 

Good Morning Mr. Michael.

 

I think you may have responded to the wrong Post. I did not present the question, and I have no interest in the information being sought.

 

My thoughts were commenting on the logic of the reason the information was being sought.

 

Good Morning Mr. John.

 

I think you may have responded to the wrong post. I think Michael was replying to the OP, not you.

 

mark feld is correct i responded to the original poster

[michael]

you are 100% correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

thank you mr. feld!!

[staircoins]

To the OP ... (just so we're all clear)

 

I don't care how many coins were submitted to CAC, or even how many were stickered of a given submission. I only care whether the coin I'm considering is stickered or not.

 

Why do I not care about the overall ratio of submittals to stickers? Because folks vary widely in how they use the service.

 

It's cheap enough that some collectors I know sent practically their entire collections in for review, and received relatively few stickers ... while others only submit those coins they feel are worthy of a sticker. This causes the 'sticker success rate' to vary dramatically from one submission to another.

 

If all the stats were published, they wouldn't be very meaningful ... but folks would draw all sorts of conclusions from them - mostly wrong.

 

 

[Kurtdog]

My thoughts were commenting on the logic of the reason the information was being sought.

Actually, now that I think of it, I think you have a good point. Supposing I have the only SVDB that got the green light from CAC, out of, suppose, 8000 submissions. Mine is VF25. How does one know half of that 8000 wasn't MS, they just failed to CAC at the numeric grade on the slab? Every one of those is still a better grade than mine.

[MarkFeld]

CAC pop report for Lincoln Cents, including S-VDB's of various grades

 

To the OP - prices/premiums for various CAC coins are already influenced, in part, by the publicly available population data. They are also influenced by bids posted for CAC coins, a number of those bids posted as a result of that data. And all of that, without knowing the data regarding the coins which have been rejected.

 

For example, if you follow the market, you will know that MS65 (and higher) graded Saints stickered by CAC generally sell at significant premiums to non-CAC coins. You don't need to know how many CAC has rejected to understand that it's worth getting such coins stickered if you can.

 

Sure, there are some situations where it could make a big difference if you could know the rejection rate for certain coins. But at this point, such scenarios probably represent a very small percentage of those which you could reasonably expect to encounter.

[Proudtoown]

To give everyone an update, I emailed John, no response yet.

 

As to the actual coins, yes, when I buy a coin, I am looking at the coin, not the slab not the plastic, not the label, nor if there is a green/gold sticker on it.

 

What I am pointing out, and you may or may not like it, but coins are a market, there are investors and collectors. That being said, TPGs and CAC have, in my opinion have targeted mostly to the investors. Most collectors, again my opinion, are looking at the coin.

 

CAC is basically a 4th party grading for the TPGs, they either agree or not Now, come the reports. Lets say that I look up oh 1925 $5 gold Indian. I find out that PCSG has graded 1,000 of them at MS64, NGC another 1,000 at MS64. Now I send the coin to CAC dont get back a sticker. Now if I could just see that well, 750 of that same coin has been submitted to CAC and only 50 got a sticker, then something is wrong. Whos not grading correctly??

 

As a both a collector and an investor, which I am, I would think that data would be helpful. Dealers could market the fact that ONLY 50 have gotten a sticker, if you were not an informed person, you would pay more, which is what we are seeing in the market today. Just look at auctions with CAC stickers, going for premiums, just because of a sticker???

 

Again, as both a collector/investor I like to have the CAC sticker because of the stereotype, people pay more.

 

You may or may not agree that the data is important, but I do. I think it would be very insightful to what is actually getting stickers percentage wise vs not stickers.

[MarkFeld]

To give everyone an update, I emailed John, no response yet.

 

As to the actual coins, yes, when I buy a coin, I am looking at the coin, not the slab not the plastic, not the label, nor if there is a green/gold sticker on it.

 

What I am pointing out, and you may or may not like it, but coins are a market, there are investors and collectors. That being said, TPGs and CAC have, in my opinion have targeted mostly to the investors. Most collectors, again my opinion, are looking at the coin.

 

CAC is basically a 4th party grading for the TPGs, they either agree or not Now, come the reports. Lets say that I look up oh 1925 $5 gold Indian. I find out that PCSG has graded 1,000 of them at MS64, NGC another 1,000 at MS64. Now I send the coin to CAC dont get back a sticker. Now if I could just see that well, 750 of that same coin has been submitted to CAC and only 50 got a sticker, then something is wrong. Whos not grading correctly??

 

As a both a collector and an investor, which I am, I would think that data would be helpful. Dealers could market the fact that ONLY 50 have gotten a sticker, if you were not an informed person, you would pay more, which is what we are seeing in the market today. Just look at auctions with CAC stickers, going for premiums, just because of a sticker???

 

Again, as both a collector/investor I like to have the CAC sticker because of the stereotype, people pay more.

 

You may or may not agree that the data is important, but I do. I think it would be very insightful to what is actually getting stickers percentage wise vs not stickers.

 

Regarding your example above....

 

First, there are no 1925 $5 gold pieces, at least not any genuine ones.

 

Second, even if CAC only stickered 50 out of 750 coins, that wouldn't mean that someone's "not grading correctly", only that there was a difference of opinion, likely due to different standards.

[wheat'swheats]

 

""CAC is basically a 4th party grading for the TPGs, they either agree or not Now, come the reports. Lets say that I look up oh 1925 $5 gold Indian. I find out that PCSG has graded 1,000 of them at MS64, NGC another 1,000 at MS64. Now I send the coin to CAC dont get back a sticker. Now if I could just see that well, 750 of that same coin has been submitted to CAC and only 50 got a sticker, then something is wrong. Whos not grading correctly??""

 

Your error here is stating that some one has graded incorrectly. The CAC sticker does not mean that the coin was incorrectly graded. Just that the grade of the coin is a "C" quality and not A or B quality which would receive a sticker. The Gold sticker implies that the coin is improperly graded. However, to the submitters favor.

 

 

.

 

 

 

[bochiman]

""CAC is basically a 4th party grading for the TPGs, they either agree or not Now, come the reports. Lets say that I look up oh 1925 $5 gold Indian. I find out that PCSG has graded 1,000 of them at MS64, NGC another 1,000 at MS64. Now I send the coin to CAC dont get back a sticker. Now if I could just see that well, 750 of that same coin has been submitted to CAC and only 50 got a sticker, then something is wrong. Whos not grading correctly??""

 

Your error here is stating that some one has graded incorrectly. The CAC sticker does not mean that the coin was incorrectly graded. Just that the grade of the coin is a "C" quality and not A or B quality which would receive a sticker. The Gold sticker implies that the coin is improperly graded. However, to the submitters favor.

 

 

 

Bingo! The OP doesn't seem to get that point.

 

Go to the CAC website and click on FAQs. #3 and #5 are the particular ones you should pay attention to for what you (mis)stated above....

 

3. If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?

 

Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade. Unfortunately, it is an inescapable reality that many are at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade. CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade.

 

5. I noticed that CAC uses the term “premium quality” to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?

 

For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker

 

Do you see where it says "although accurately graded"?