Austrian Thaler info wanted

[CarlWohlforth]

I figured this might be a good place to ask for info. I just read JamminJs posts and saw some neat thalers.

 

Below are images of two thalers I have and wanted to learn more about them. I haven't found a comprehensive website with thaler info -- it seems there should be one. They are not perfectly flat, can I assume that is normal for a hand hammered coin?

 

1713 Carl VI 1 thaler. There is a lighter area at very top of the coin on both sides. Does that indicate anything?

 

 

1740 Carl VI 2 thaler. Could this be uncirculated? I don't see a rub anywhere but I also don't see much if any luster.

 

 

His lower lip sure looks funny protruding like that, doesn't it?

[gmarguli]

They are not perfectly flat, can I assume that is normal for a hand hammered coin?

 

They are struck with roller dies which creates a potato chip like appearance.

 

 

1713 Carl VI 1 thaler. There is a lighter area at very top of the coin on both sides. Does that indicate anything?

 

The coin appears to have been mounted.

[JamminJ]

They are not perfectly flat, can I assume that is normal for a hand hammered coin?

 

These coins were struck using roller dies. These were two steeel rollers each with the imprint of the coin (look like part of an old time laundry set up). A strip of metal was fed between the two rollers and the coins were punched out afterwards.

 

The coins in their natural state are almost always curved like a Pringles potato chip. Most often the axis of curvature is along the 12:00-6:00 lines. Over the years many have been flattened somewhat, but at least some of the original curvature remains. A truly flat coin may be an indicator of a counterfeit.

 

There is a lighter area at very top of the coin on both sides. Does that indicate anything?

 

It may be indication of heating used to help repair a mount. The coins were often used a jewelery, either by having a loop drilled into the coin or by being place in a bezel. Mounts are very bad news for the numismatic value of a coin.

 

By closely examining the rims around the heated spot for evidence of replaced metal you can usually detect the remnant of a mount. Somtimes it can be tricky as the planchets used could be quite rough with natural imperfections. When in doubt it's best to pass or get some additional opinions.

 

Personally, I'm extremely suspicious of coins with imperfections at 12:00, and also on high alert alert for flaws at 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00. I would pass on your first coin because of the discoloration.

 

His lower lip sure looks funny protruding like that, doesn't it?

 

Hapsburgs were well known for this characteristic - it's a medical condition whose name escapes me at this moment. Charlse/Karl looks alot better than his father Leopold the Hogmouth!

 

I haven't found a comprehensive website with thaler info

 

No websites are out there as far as I know. The best first source for Austrian thaler info would be the two Krause catalogs covering the 17th and 18th centuries. Beyond that would be some of the davenport catalogs, especially the European Crowns and German Thalers 1500-1600 volumes. There are also a few small pamphlet books such as Thalers of the Austrian Noble Houses. Finally auction catalogs and dealer price lists are a useful resource. Good auction shouses are Jean Elsen and Ponteria, and a good dealer is Kal Stephens.

 

Could this be uncirculated? I don't see a rub anywhere but I also don't see much if any luster.

You expect 200+ year old silver to be blast white? Have you never read any of dorkkarl's posts across the street?

 

Seriously, the coin looks uncirculated to me by American Standards, or EF by Europoean. Multiple thalers did not crculate much so they are often found well preserved. Many have been cleaned, as I think is the case with yours. The yellow spot in front of the portrait is distracting.

 

I don't think it will fit in an NGC slab, but they'll send it back in a flip with a greade shoud you desire. My guess on the grade would be 58 or 62, with a preference for the latter, assuming there are no problems whic the image does not convey.

 

Don't hesitate to ask iif you have further qquestiosn - I love these things!

 

-JamminJ

[CarlWohlforth]

Thanks for the info! That really helps. I do suspect the 1 T was mounted at some point.

 

By luster I meant a cartwheel effect, I certainly appreciate what old silver should look like in terms of toning. To me the lack of luster is a clue the coin might have been cleaned at some point. However I am not used to looking at very old coins like these. I wonder if these coins had any luster the day they were minted?

 

The pringles comment is a good one and it accurately describes these coins, the 1 T being more curved than the 2 T. I thought these coins were hand hammered but it sounds like it would be more accurate to say they were rolled. There must have been great pressure betweent the rollers to get a nice impression on the large 2 T coin!

[JamminJ]

I'm glad you found the information useful!

 

I think I have a line drawing of the roller dies somewhere. I'll have a look-see when I get home and post an image if I can find it.

 

The pringles comment is a good one and it accurately describes these coins, the 1 T being more curved than the 2 T.

That's fairly standard. The small diameter and thin coins curve more while larger and thicker ones curve a bit less. I have a minor which is so curved it just barely fit in an NGC slab.

 

Somtimes they would make quadruple thick thalers using 1/4 thaler dies. These come perfectly flat. One day I want one in my collection!

 

I wonder if these coins had any luster the day they were minted?

 

That's a tough question to answer simply. Probably some did and some didn't. Not too helpful, I nkow, but realize these coins were stuck for over 400 years in about 10,000 types and from dozens of different mints. Variation is the rule, not the exception.

 

I know at least some types did have luster when they were new as I have a few that are lustrous today, and one that's even proof-like. However, I also have a few which have wonderful detail and no obvious cleaning but are dull grey. The obviously clened ones often take on a yellowish or clad-like look to them.

 

-JamminJ

[Hoot]

His lower lip sure looks funny protruding like that, doesn't it?

 

Hapsburgs were well known for this characteristic - it's a medical condition whose name escapes me at this moment. Charlse/Karl looks alot better than his father Leopold the Hogmouth!

 

Did their family have Reiger's anomaly? Often accompanied by unusual eyes that are quite almond shaped and with iris/pupil/cornea problems, and glaucoma. Protruding lower lip and fattening of the central face. Peg-like teeth or no teeth. Manifests itself to various degrees of condition.

 

Hoot

[GDJMSP]

 

I think I have a line drawing of the roller dies somewhere. I'll have a look-see when I get home and post an image if I can find it.

 

 

-JamminJ

 

See if this will work instead

 

[JamminJ]

Thanks, that's much better than my ink drawing! I'm going to save that picture for future reference.

 

-JamminJ

[CarlWohlforth]

Thanks for posting that photo! I can understand why the coins are not perfectly flat.

[JamminJ]

Boy do I feel used.

 

$500 opening bid for a mounted thaler.

 

One more e-bayer to avoid.

 

-JamminJ

[gmarguli]

Boy do I feel used.

 

Isn't the Coin Dealer Motto "Bend Over [!@#%^&^]"?

 

 

$500 opening bid for a mounted thaler.

 

Ouch, that does seem high. I don't know what Krause is for that coin, but considering it is mounted, I'd expect it to bring about 35% of EF catalog, so catalog would have to be around $1500. It might sell a little better if the light area were darkened - not that I am suggesting doing anything to the coin.

 

The 1740 Charles VI 2T is also up for $1200. It's a very nice looking coin. However, the multi-talers frequently bring prices that bear no resemblance to Krause. I purchased a popular design 2T in AU58 for 40% of EF catalog.

 

FYI, when selling talers, it seems to help if you include the Davenport number in the auction listing.

[JamminJ]

Boy do I feel used.

 

Isn't the Coin Dealer Motto "Bend Over [!@#%^&^]"?

 

At least it was a fairly painless lesson for the ol' rectum. It would have been far worse buying a damaged thaler for an undamaged price.

 

Think he'll get any bids?

 

-JamminJ

[gmarguli]

Think he'll get any bids?

 

I don't know Krause, but unless it is a LOT more - nope. Talers put up at open can do well. Those with high reserves very rarely seem to sell on eBay. Even rarer talers that are priced very fairly fail to sell often if they have high starting bids.

 

What is Krause?

[JamminJ]

What is Krause?

 

Can't check until I get home tonight. Gut feel is that the 1T is about $400 in XF and the 2T about $1000.

 

-JamminJ

[JamminJ]

It might sell a little better if the light area were darkened - not that I am suggesting doing anything to the coin.

 

Wow, can things ike that really be done to coins? Do you think people might do that to increase their prices?

 

-JamminJ

[CarlWohlforth]

I have these Thalers on consignment. I opened them at those prices at the request of the owner. Personally I like to start all my auctions at 1 cent and do so when I can.

 

When I learn about an issue with a coin I point it out. It might be that the owner didn't know the 1 T was mounted. It could also be that he wants the coins opened at prices near what he paid for the coins. But I am speculating as I haven't asked the owner those questions.

 

I appreciate the information you all have shared with me. The next time I ask for information on coins heading to auction I will note that I am trying to learn about coins that will be for sale.

 

I did use what I learned to help describe coins I put at auction. I also enjoyed learning about these coins. I spent some time searching the web and reading up on Charles VI. I can't afford to collect everything and am very happy I am able to have these interesting coins pass through my hands, if only for a brief time.

 

I appologize if I have offended anybody by my actions.

[gmarguli]

Not trying to pick on your auctions at all, but looking up the 1713 1T in Krause, it appears that the catalog is $300 in XF with it going down to $50 in VG. That means that it is a very common type. Figuring choice XF / low AU this coin would likely sell for $275-$325 if it weren't mounted. With the mount - $100-$125. The odds of it selling for $500 is extremely small.

 

The 1740 2T catalogs at $900 in XF and goes down to $300 in VG. Again, it is likely one of the more common ones to have survived - even if it did have a mintage of 834 pieces. If retail prices followed Krause, then $1200 would be a fair price. However, my guess is that the true retail value for this piece is in the $600-$800 range. I wouldn't be stunned to see it sell for $1200, but I wouldn't be counting on it. I like the design and this is a 2T I would be very willing to add to my collection and I'll pay strong prices if I really want it. Having said that, a gut feeling is that with some searching this coin could be purchased for around $695.

 

 

It might be that the owner didn't know the 1 T was mounted.

 

(cough) 112 NGC bodybags for the G.S. (cough). Same consigmer??

 

 

I appologize if I have offended anybody by my actions.

 

Not at all. JamminJ is just a crotchety old man.

[JamminJ]

Thanks for coming back to comment on your auctions Carl, nor harm no foul.

 

I have these Thalers on consignment. I opened them at those prices at the request of the owner.

 

IMO, considering the catalog value of the 1T your consignor is making you look like a crook.

 

-JamminJ

[JamminJ]

Not at all. JamminJ is just a crotchety old man.

 

 

I took and online personality survey just today which informed me that I'm a people person.

 

-JamminJ