Legandcoin.com new HOTTOPIC is really hot

[Morgannut]

The main reason I asked the Legend Coins Editorial be posted (thanks Hoot) has not been brought up so perhaps I'm being stupid stating the unimportant but here goes. I couldn't care less if either a wannabe or an established/respected dealer is the one who posts on EBay (for example) the top registry set of CC Morgans for over a million dollars. I DON'T care what a millionaire buys and how absurd the price might be. I do care about my hobby and new collecters. Laura foolishly damages her own arguement by saying "guy who just bought these two PCGS Morgans"...(is going to lose). Shes critical of "someone who puts up a web site, runs Ebay auctions....Ebay is the biggest breeding ground". If everyone can agree that PCGS and NGC are the two most reliable services, then just as a statistical question go through Ebay silver dollars and randomly count the number of sellers with major service coins vs. others. This week is the first time I ever even thought to view coins on Ebay and I was shocked by the tiny ratio of major service coins to goofball service and raw coins. There are tens of thousands of newbees buying on Ebay. Wouldn't they at least be better off with a small number of randomly picked NGC/PCGS ms 63-ms65 coins held for 15 or 20 years? Laura's article might be better titled "Dealers who aren't really Collectors on Ebay and don't even have a One Day return policy." The same hit and run types are doing well ! So well they are moving up to Legendcoin's little arena. My thought is it's the major service's fault for not advertising their product better to inform newbees why grading is so important when you're a beginner. And why is our ANA so hard up for money they have to sell an endorsement to one but not both majors? --sorry for my spelling. Bill

[dragon]

I have always been turned off by people (salesmen) that consistently blow their own horn and attempt to belittle or discredit their competition. I don't believe it's a good sales practice, nor is it true in most cases.

 

 

The fact is....coins are coins, and you can buy both dogs as well as eye appealing, high end coins from little 'dealer wannabees' or huge dealers like Heritage. The only difference is that the larger dealers with deeper pockets typically sell more expensive material, not necessarily BETTER COINS FOR THE STATED GRADE. In fact, many of my very best 'keeper' pieces were purchased from smaller dealers at smaller local shows, not the big heavy hitters.

 

I also completely 100% disagree that the smaller or wannabee dealers get the leftover material that the big boys pass on, that's a completely untrue statement from my experiences in over 20+ years of buying coins.

 

IMO, the bottom line is the coin is what it is, no matter if you're buying it from Spectrum, Heritage, U.S. Coins, or from a part time, low budget vest pocket dealer at a tiny local show somewhere, period.

 

dragon

[ClassicsRule-migration]

I'm posting over here since the other side went wacko on this topic.

 

I believe Laura's heart is in the right place, but I also believe she would do well to let go a little and trust the other folks on the Legend team to help mold their public image. Had they had the opportunity to filter this report before it went out, a lot of bad PR could have been avoided. Instead I see other Legend people trying to do damage control on this thing.

 

This whole Hot Topics article reminded me of an Oliver Stone movie. Just throw everything up on the screen and watch the fireworks. I'm not saying it's not true. But, because Laura can't name names, it becomes very difficult to argue this case in public.

[dragon]

Hi ClassicsRule, and welcome to the forum

[Bruceswar]

welcome classic to the forums ... All I will say about the piece is that it was good in thought, but not well written

[Morgannut]

Welcome ClassicRule! I got sick of it on the other side too and your post is 100%

right on the issue. Laura and the services are just not articulating clearly and the public is getting ripped.

[EVillageProwler]

Let's assume Laura's heart is in the right place for the moment. If so, and she sees a new crop of bad dealers trying to do bad things to the unsuspecting public, then what is she supposed to do?

 

We all know that she can't name names for fear of getting embroiled in neverending litigation. (And, plus, the rest of the Legend team would surely kill her.) Should she keep quiet like 99.999999999999999% of her peers and just let it happen? The main reasons why the vast majority of her peers say nothing is either because they don't care or because they're afraid of bad publicity.

 

To those who had a problem with the article, I think the vast majority of the criticism is fair. However, I would still encourage her not to keep silent. Will the things she says have a slant? Of course. She's like everyone else ever to grace this green planet -- a product of her experiences. She's also a bootstrap-pulling dirt-in-nails kind of a gal, not some slick politico who knows how to speak with honeyed tongue while getting you to hand over your children to the Hitler Youth.

 

To me, it is better to try to do right than to sit in fear or indifference and just let wrong happen.

 

(This is similar to TomB's various attempts at debunking Iwog's persistent crusade against patination, only Tom is far more articulate and precise than Laura.)

 

To those who had a problem with the author of the article, I say that you should look in the mirror. After you see a perfect person, then come back here and let us know.

 

And to those who don't think her heart is in the right place, I say that you're entitled to your opinion. You probably don't know her very well.

 

Finally, I want to say that I am not trying to say that the article's assertions are correct. I am only responding to the nature of the criticisms.

 

Regards,

 

EVP

[Hoot]

EVP - No one asked for Laura to be perfect, or to be slick, or to be quiet. However, she is all about criticizing people whom she can't name as being unprofessional, but she herself is just that. So, what's good for the goose is good for the gander - a simple matter of accountability. She simply should have considered more carefully what she was saying, and should have filtered it through her employees so that the intent of the statement could have been read more clearly and not lost in a maelstrom of innuendo. (Trusting her employees to be more diplomatic and insightful would help her to maintain face.)

 

So, it's not a matter of looking in a mirror to see Mr./Ms. Perfect, it's a matter of seeing clearly that there are better ways to act. Whenever a person places themselves in a position of scrutiny, they can expect the consequences. And we are not all hypocrites for speaking frankly about the statements that were made. Perhaps by the lessons of our own accountability, we, ourselves, have learned to be more concise and more diplomatic in our own affairs. Laura, too, should try learning from the criticisms that are (repeatedly) offered to her.

 

Hoot

[EVillageProwler]

Fair response, Hoot.

 

Laura, too, should try learning from the criticisms that are (repeatedly) offered to her.

 

Alas, I think I'd sooner win the lottery twice in a row before this happens. (BTW, I do NOT play the lottery. As a fellow digit-head, you can see how bad the odds are of her changing her ways.)

 

Now I have a question for you: Why do I keep on trying to defend the indefensible? Maybe I deserve one of these:

 

EVP

 

PS As an aside, I did not become ill after this past ANA show. Perhaps my proximity theory has validity after all?!?

[dragon]

I find it interesting how everyone in the industry is afraid to 'name names' for fear of litigation. So in fact the slimeball dealers and coin doctors essentially hold the honest and upstanding people of the industry hostage to keeping silent for fear of litigation. Maybe they should be termed as 'coin terrorists' ??

 

I've been told there's yet ANOTHER reason many of the coin docs are not exposed and named publicly........because many of the so-called upsatnding dealers have actually USED THEIR SERVICES at one time, and can't expose them without fear of exposing themselves, hmmmmmmm, food for thought.....

[Hoot]

Now I have a question for you: Why do I keep on trying to defend the indefensible?

 

 

Maybe I deserve one of these:

 

You'd like it too much.

 

PS As an aside, I did not become ill after this past ANA show. Perhaps my proximity theory has validity after all?!?

 

I'll get you at FUN.

 

Hoot

[Newmismatist]

Well, here's the problem with the Legend’s "Hot-Topic": First, it's a "rant" and second, it's one of dichotomy - Laura is 100% right and she's 100% wrong.

 

There is a problem with buying coins from people who don't know what they're doing and who merely broker coins, or buy a plastic grade w/o knowledge of what resides in the holder. Some, maybe even many, sell coins on ebay, BUT some also sell coins like that at coin shows, and some major dealers do also.

 

Laura's problem is that she cloaks her "pearls of wisdom" is vast generalizations. So while they may apply to some people, they certainly do not apply to ALL people. In many respects Laura is like a broken (ie: stopped) clock - it's 100% accurate - but only twice a day.

 

For example, not ALL part time dealers are dishonest, cheat their customers and buy and sell over-graded, over priced coins. Unfortunately, if you read Laura's post, ALL part time dealers are just that and "part-time grease monkeys" too. Laura must live on a different planet than I do. I know and I have dealt with, in a very positive manner, scores of honest, small dealers, part time dealers and knowledgeable collectors who sell very nice coins in their niche area, the latter so that can continually enhance their personal collections.

 

Furthermore, not all "market-makers" who have been in business more than 5 years and who attend major shows and auctions are Honest, Fair and Ethical. I've been collecting coins for almost 55 years. I was cheated by a "big-time” dealer when I was 8 years old - he sold me a "whizzed" buffalo nickel at a major show in 1954. I thought it was uncirculated - it looked unc, and he sold it to me as unc. When I showed it off at the next meeting of our local coin club, a part time dealer who worked in one of the automotive plants took the time to explain to me why the coin was not unc and what had been done to it. The next time I saw the "big-time” dealer who attended all the major coin shows, I asked for a refund. He refused - I still have that coin somewhere, marked whizzed - it was an expensive lesson for an 8 year old, relatively new coin collector - BUT it saved me thousands of dollars over the years - and I NEVER bought another coin from the big-time dealer and every chance I got I told other collectors to be careful if they wanted to buy a coin from that dealer -

 

BIG does not equal "good" - don't confuse the two. Just think Enron, World-Com and more than a few others; nor does small equal dishonesty. Laura's problem in her "rant" is that she doesn't know how to distinguish between these concepts. She has pointed out a truth that is as applicable today as it was 50 years ago - there are people (even coin dealers ) who will cheat you if they think they can get away with it - there is a French saying: La plus change', la plus la meme chose" - translated it means "The more things change, the more things remain the same.”

 

Take the current mantra: "ONLY buy slabbed coins" - or even "ONLY buy coins slabbed by PCGS or NGC" My comment to that is: If you do that BLINDLY, it will be a virtual certainty that you will own over-graded and over-priced coins, and it won't matter if you buy 'em from a major "big-time” dealer: or Laura's favorite "grease-monkey" dealer. Anyone remember the 1927-S MS65FH SLQ that was hotly debated on these boards several months ago? IT was slabbed by a MAJOR, REPUTABLE TPG, it was offered for sale by MAJOR, REPUTABLE coin dealer that, suffice it to say, met every one of Laura's 5 criteria. As I recall the coin was offered for $250K (I think about 10% more than greysheet bid) and I'd bet that it could have been purchased back of greysheet bid. Only problem, (this from memory) is that it didn't look like it had a full head, and it didn't look MS65. So if a wealthy "Collector" wanted a registry set with a 1927-S MS65FH as his center-piece, he could have bought this coin, slabbed by a MAJOR, REPUTABLE TPG, and sold to him by a MAJOR, REPUTABLE coin dealer - and he would have a MAJOR loss on that coin when it came time to sell - unless there was a bigger fool out there waiting to buy that "gem". Anyone recall the "GEM" 1963 PR70 Deep Cam Lincoln Memorial Cent that sold in a major Auction for over $39K? Same thing - the lesson is: it's not who you buy from, nor who slabbed it that’s important. It’s WHAT you buy, and you’d better know what it is that you’re buying. Major big-time dealers as well as small part time dealers will all be happy to take your money if you don’t have a clue as to what you’re buying, and that applies to major auctions, the bourse floor and well as ebay.

 

How about this: NEVER buy coins unless they are slabbed by NGC or PCGS! (I’ve heard this a lot from major dealers). One of the best coins I ever bought came in a PCI holder, purchased from a part-time dealer, who just happened to specialize in toned Morgans - I'm about as certain as I can be that he is not a "major market maker" He also spent about 45 minutes at a FUN show patiently explaining the nuances of toned coins - I've posted that coin here, it's an 1880-S - gorgeous toning - I paid STUPID money for it - I've had about a dozen requests to sell that coin - several standing offers, but I like it so much that it's not for sale, period. The point being - it was a toned coin, purchased in a PCI holder for multiples of greysheet bid from a part-time dealer . Am I recommending that someone run out and stock up on toned PCI coins - No, but I am suggesting that there are some great coins for sale that are not in NGC and PCGS holders - and they often turn up for sale from part time dealers who are specialists in a particular area that they truly love. I'd also suggest that if you're going to pay "stupid" money for toned coins that you learn what you're doing FIRST (might want to consider joining the Toned Coin Collectors Society too )

 

Apart from the fact that Laura's "rant" is as much about self aggrandizement as anything else, whatever parts are 100% right get confused with the parts that are 100% wrong. Or putting it another way: that stopped clock is right for 2 seconds each day; there are 86,400 seconds each day - that's an accuracy rate of less than .003% - And THAT is about the same accuracy as the information conveyed in the Legend rant - (not counting the numerous spelling and grammatical errors )!

 

[TonedDollarNut - If you have any influence over at Legend, see if you can get Laura to buy a word processing program that has spell check - If buying and selling all those millions of dollars worth of coins has left her a little short and she can't afford one, let me know, I'll donate one - I'm sure it'll be for a good cause ]

[Tradedollarnut]

mmmmm. Toned Dollar Nut.

 

[Hoot]

mmmmm. Toned Dollar Nut.

 

 

I like it!

 

Hoot

[EVillageProwler]

 

Hoot likes AT coins...

[Hoot]

 

Hoot likes AT coins...

 

Always! (Just look at jom's and Wihlborg's buffalo nickels! )

 

Hoot

[Wihlborg]

Hoot,

 

I must protest you’re placing my coins in the same category as Jom’s. I happen to take great pride in my buffalos! They may be AT, but they are all high quality AT, worked on by only the best of the best coin doctors. Comparing my coins to Jom’s coins is like comparing a Picasso to a paint by numbers painting.

 

 

 

 

Of course, I am only kidding around people. I would be the first to admit that Jom owns some of the finest AT coins that I have ever seen.

 

John

 

[islandcoins-migration]

I have always been turned off by people (salesmen) that consistently blow their own horn and attempt to belittle or discredit their competition. I don't believe it's a good sales practice, nor is it true in most cases.

 

 

The fact is....coins are coins, and you can buy both dogs as well as eye appealing, high end coins from little 'dealer wannabees' or huge dealers like Heritage. The only difference is that the larger dealers with deeper pockets typically sell more expensive material, not necessarily BETTER COINS FOR THE STATED GRADE. In fact, many of my very best 'keeper' pieces were purchased from smaller dealers at smaller local shows, not the big heavy hitters.

 

I also completely 100% disagree that the smaller or wannabee dealers get the leftover material that the big boys pass on, that's a completely untrue statement from my experiences in over 20+ years of buying coins.

 

IMO, the bottom line is the coin is what it is, no matter if you're buying it from Spectrum, Heritage, U.S. Coins, or from a part time, low budget vest pocket dealer at a tiny local show somewhere, period.

 

dragon

 

The statements made by this gentleman are entirely true and basically surmise what I had intended to write as my "2 cents worth" to this thread.

 

I AM a full time dealer and have been for 7 years. Before that time, I was a collector since childhood. After reading the "hot topic" myself, I was completely dumfounded by the "kiss my ring" attitude expressed in this poorly articulated commentary. I certainly hope no one takes it verbatim and instead, recognizes it for what it truly is, as being self serving commentary.

 

Time and time again, I have witnessed many of the "big boys" combing the floors at smaller venues, filling their "want lists" from the Mom and Pop dealers. It is incredible to witness the metamorphosis these coins go through when they travel from the smaller dealer and into their display cases. Its like the hand of God has healed a coin that was alleged by the purchaser as over graded or ugly and into the absolute best you will ever find. It has happened to me on many occasions at the larger shows when a customer will find a particular coin in my case that is also in the case of a much larger dealer. Understand, this coin is of the same denomination, date, grade, color and grading service. If the customer discusses my having this same coin to the other dealer, the other dealer’s reply is almost always the same. They are the market makers, offer only PQ coins, know what they are doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, bada bing, bada boop. Most of the time, the customer will buy from me due to the price, however, some will fall for the scare tactic similar to those expressed in the “hot topic”, even if my coin is just as nice, just as well struck and has just as much eye appeal. The other dealers of course LOVE people like the one expressed above and are then considered to be “educated” customers. You would also be surprised to know that many of these big dealers also do telemarketing. They simply open up another company under a different name and, well, you know what most telemarketers do. I would like to see how successful many would be without this practice.

 

The facts are very simple, if the smaller dealers had to buy their entire inventory from the big dealers, they would be out of business. If the smaller dealers stopped selling to the big dealers, THEY would be out of business. Knowledge is power, however, in the coin business as with most others, money is even more powerful. I suppose the article in question implies the dealers that buy and sell 25 million dollars worth of coins in a year did so by purchasing them at the fairest and highest buy prices and by selling them at the lowest and fairest price to their customers. I am also selling a bridge. In reality, many of the larger dealers actually feed off of the less financially stable dealers and take advantage of them like a shark that smells blood in the water. They just love small dealers that set up at these large and expensive shows and have to “sell their way out” to pay expenses because they may have had a bad show.

 

The "in crowd" or “loop” referred to in this article is actually true and considering “hot topics” brought it up, I will be happy to discuss same. It’s whom you know and how much money you have to blow that gets one into “the loop”. Do you honestly believe all the people that belong to this group are only the most astute? This is a business, being a Rhodes scholar is not a requirement. Making the market, what’s hot, what’s not. Buying up all of a certain date and grade to make the price increase and then selling. Does the term insider trading come to mind? This is not rocket science and the author of the article in question should not flatter himself or herself.

 

The bottom line is simple. Competition among business is good for the buying public. It is a generally accepted concept that a smaller business can be more cost effective due to lower expenses, such as those incurred by larger companies incurring additional expenses by paying people to write fallacious articles. Stating the “concern right now is with the dealer wannabes” translates into our concern right now for us losing business. The Internet has leveled the playing field in many areas of business in this country, including the coin business and they do not like it. Buying from a bigger dealer in no way assures anyone of getting a better deal, a better coin, or will never get ripped off. If you are looking for very rare and expensive material, you will probably fare better with a large and wealthy dealer that can afford to keep them in stock and you can afford to pay the price. However, in the real world, chances are a smaller dealer will give you better service, remember your name and most importantly, will want you to continue being a customer. Not by flashy advertising, bulk E-mails, phone calls, or literature mailed to your home. Instead by the simple premises of being polite, fair and honest. Seek them out and ignore the hype.

[jom]

Another great post...this time by Mr. Islandcoins.

 

I would be the first to admit that Jom owns some of the finest AT coins that I have ever seen.

 

I agree!

 

jom

[Scarsdale Coin]

funny I wonder which Island Coins is talking...the one from Long Island or the one in Maryland? will the real Island please stand up?

[Wihlborg]

funny I wonder which Island Coins is talking...the one from Long Island or the one in Maryland?

 

Well, he lists his location as the land of taxes. That can only mean New York!

 

John

[Gregg Bingham]

 

i will tell you one thing....this thread has been filled with excellent posts... regarding both " sides of the coin "...gee i couldnt resist!!!!..but each made you think and the stimulation here has been great

 

if i mentioned ________ or ________ i could/would leave someone out so ...I SAY CUDOS to all who have posted....it was the best damm reading i have had in a while...great job to all

 

now for my two cents....i have known laura for many years and we all know she never holds anything back...she ALWAYS hyperbolizes to make her point and she ALWAYS steps on toes...that just her....love her or otherwise...i for one enjoy her ..however she might not think i do...but i really do.....and yes she can be a pain in the ....

 

you never...ever have to question which side of the fence she is on...she is the anti kerry....and never flip flops

 

there is an old saying ...keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer...with laura there is no doubt as to where you should be...and i for one call her a friend

 

to all you guys and gals.....keep up the great posts

 

gregg bingham

 

aka monsterman

[Oldtrader3]

Islandcoins: Interesting perspective! I also have been low-balled and cherry picked by dealers who then paraded my slabbed coin(s) around the bourse while I felt really crappy. Retrospectively considered, I quess this is part of the "little-guy" portfolio of life experiences.

 

Laura's article is interesting and accurate to a point. However, consider this scenario: I have been collecting coins and assembling sets of NGC/PCGS graded coins for many years. What if I decided to become a "professional" coin dealer and sell several hundred of my slabbed coins at shows, at fair market value? Does this make me a threat to society?

 

In response to your article, I am weary of many dealers (at small shows) who talk-down and try to buy my coins cheaply. Also, I often can not even approach the "big-guys" (at larger shows) with coins to sell because they are always "busy" with other dealers. Few large dealers know me personally, including Legend, even though I may have dealt with their firm for many years. Ebay is not a desirable outlet alternative. I have health problems and will not contend with the hassle and lack of integrity of many Ebay buyer/dealers's.

 

So Laura, if you have any comments regarding the experienced, honest, mid-price-level collector who may wish to become a dealer in order to sell hundreds of nice coins, I would be interested in reading your response.