Legandcoin.com new HOTTOPIC is really hot

[Morgannut]

There are a lot of new dealers out and Ms Sperber

questions whether these "wantabes" really stand behind their

coins. I don't know computers so maybe someone can link

Legend's post to this forum as was done on the PCGS forum.

My eyes were opened at a recent Baltimore Show big time--I think its

scary . What do you think?

[Hoot]

Legend's Hot Topic

 

Welcome Morgannut!

 

Hoot

[scroll]

It seems to me that if this group of extremely reputable dealers is so very small that it would not be too difficult to compose a list of them. Or better still, if they had membership in some sort of professional organization that a newbie could look to as proof that this is an honost and experienced dealer.

[James_OldeTowne]

It appears that I am one of the "wannabe dealers" targeted by this article, as I match up almost perfectly with their description:

 

Someone who puts up a web site, runs Ebay auctions (mostly with coins they do NOT own), has less than a year as a FULL TIME dealer, and really has NO connections to the real marketmakers.

 

I have a web site, I run eBay auctions mostly with coins consigned to me, and have never been a full-time dealer. I also don't believe I have any connections to the real marketmakers (though I honestly don't know who they would be anyway).

 

There's more:

 

Sure, their coins might look nice, but these guys haven't a clue. The best coins they can buy are the rejects from the legit dealers on the bourse floor-even if they go to shows. Plus, they have to pay levels that are too much.

 

My coins look nice (so I've been told), and I do buy coins off the bourse floor, plus I often admit to paying too much!

 

Finally,

 

If you are putting serious money into coins, you don't want a part-time grease monkey type selling you coins. You want someone who posesses the following attributes:

 

*Has been involved in coins for MORE than 5 years.

*Is a FULL TIME dealer-no exceptions!

*Has contacts direct to the MAJOR market makers.

*Attends and sets up at EVERY MAJOR show and most MAJOR auctions.

*Has a real and positive reputation with his peers (this probablyis the MOST critical).

 

I fail to meet every one of those criteria, except may be the reputation. I guess I do have a small reputation with a few dealers and collectors, and it is positive. Other than that, I fit the description of the type of dealer that Legendcoin is warning the public about.

 

My sincerest apologies go out to everyone who has been ripped off by me, and who even at this moment, are losing millions of dollars per minute because of all the bad coins I've sold them. Please don't buy any more coins from me. Buy them from Legendcoin instead.

 

James

[Tradedollarnut]

Here we go again!

[scroll]

I see what you mean. How do you gain experience without doing?

 

OTOH, how's a newbie to know what they are walking into? If we all waited until we were "expert" in the hobby before buying I doubt there would be 1,000 collectors in the country. I'm almost fortunate that I can't purchase many $100 coins today. If I get burned I can write it off to lack of experience. But I would be devistated if a pretty, wild colored coin that I paid $1k for suddenly developed a dark disease.

[TomB]

Interesting article. I think there are many valid points in the article and exceedingly few shades of grey. This is unfortunate as I believe the message is obscured by the method of delivery. Please do not try to fend off that allegation by simply stating "That's Laura..." as this might be entirely correct, however, the responsibility of the person trying to communicate is to be certain that the message is clear and has the intended results. Otherwise, the message stands a very real possibility of getting lost, and something entirely unintended may take its place.

 

Similarly, I believe there are large parts of this article that are not only ineffective, but are counterproductive because of unfortunate (a euphamism for a much more harsh term) choices in style and grammar. As such, I would bet that we will have a large debate as to whom Legend is writing about and why Legend has the authority to label these folks instead of debating the finer points of protecting one's finances while dealing with others in this market. This is unfortunate.

 

Also, while much of the premise is valid, some of it is, to put it bluntly, foolish. This further muddies the waters and makes picking out the pearls much more difficult for those whom the article is intended to help. Overall, while quite a bit of the article is valuable, I think it puts the entire Legend brand in a bad light. This includes all those who might be directly responsible for the words, those who are directly associated with Legend and those who financially back Legend.

 

As disclosure, it could be very easy to classify myself as a "dealer wannabe" as I maintain a website (though I typically do not use it as a selling medium, I use it as an educational tool), I do walk the floor at many (not all) of the major shows, I am not a full-time dealer though I have been involved in the hobby/industry for quite some time and I very rarely run ebay auctions (much less frequently, however, than Legend does). Honestly though, I don't believe the article is aimed at folks like me as my method of operation is that I typically buy from one major, PNG dealer and sell to another major, PNG dealer simply because I know the coins within my numismatic niche better than most others, including many full-time, major, PNG dealers.

 

So, if you want to buy a major rarity or a truly upscale coin (perhaps $10k or more) then you are much better suited to a firm such as Legend, but if you want to talk about the peculiarities of superbly toned Washington quarters or the sleeper dates in the circulated Barber half set then you are better off going someplace else.

 

As always, it's your money and your best defense is knowledge.

[Hoot]

Here we go again!

 

Yes, Bruce. It's too bad that you have such an unprofessional person in the Legend organization.

 

I really despise the arrogance being displayed by Legend in their Hot Topic. It would be one thing to say, "We are a dealer to trust due to our ample experience and involvement with the dealer community and numismatics." But the story rambles on to criticize anyone who sells coins who is not a full time dealer. They say "...if the individual is any good, they will be able to do this full time and make a good living-no excuses. If they have another profession, then they are distracted and do NOT have the up to date knowledge of the market or ablities to be successful or help people to the fullest degree." This statement is prejudicial pride. What of people who do not care to make a full time living of coin dealing? Their prejudice reinforced by this statement: "...you don't want a part-time grease monkey type selling you coins." And this one: "If you were sick, would you want a part time doctor working on you? Don't think so!" (By the way, many physicians work part-time.)

 

What Legend fails to see is that people do not have to be huddled in the same crowd with them in order to be good, honest, in-touch with all or a sector of the market, or otherwise competent as numismatists. These same people can also be in full support of the hobby and of good ethics of sale or other transaction; they can be supporters of the ANA or PNG, and they do not have to belong to either organization.

 

The flaming criticism is aimed at "dealer wannabes," which is a rather ill-defined group of individuals. By making the statements that I've quoted above (misspellings and all), they equate all part-time sellers of coins to quacks and other vermin. Unfortunately, it is all done by innuendo and self-puffery, and not at all by the naming of specific individuals. As a consequence, their criticism is nothing but bad form. Ethics 101: Any generalized statement of condescension that is not applicable to all people of a given group or affiliation is prejudicial. Legend speaks of professionalism, yet they practice self-admiration and blatant prejudice.

 

Legend also needs to quiet their horn about professionalism when they clearly cannot spell, nor do they understand grammar. To "loose" a thing is to make it "looser," as opposed to "tighter." To "lose" something is to relinquish it unwittingly or unwillingly. If you "lose" an object, it is "lost." Also, the possessive for identifying something that belongs to another is to say it is "theirs," not "they're." For example, it is their grammatical error. Specifically, when Legend comments, "They're knowledge of the market is limited-regardless of what they think they know," they have blundered in apprehending and executing the proper form of the possessive, "their."

 

There is no question in my mind that Legend could care less about what I have to say. They likely do not even understand the reference to prejudice, even with the use of the term "grease monkey" when condescending to another group of professionals. Still, I am offended by their arrogant self-promotion.

 

Bear in mind that I am not offended by Legend or any other legitimate dealer attempting to put their best foot forward in business. I am also not offended by legend or any other legitimate dealer attempting to ferret out dishonest individuals in the coin business (or any other business). However, Legend should be more specific in their allegations and should take the appropriate tact of going after dishonest individuals by a quorum of their peers in the industry. As members of the PNG, they should raise issues of dishonest business practice in numismatics with other PNG members; likewise with the ANA. If they have specific example to back their allegations with proof, then they will have provided a service. Otherwise, they show nothing but insipid self-aggrandization.

 

Hoot

[jom]

Nice post, Tom.

 

jom

[Morgannut]

Hey guys, just because Laura paid the moon for the last FOUR 1892CC -DMLS

outbidding me every time (had to buy a plain MS64 ) and is therefore a mean and evil woman---well she still might be right. What do you think of these examples:

1) In Sept 14 Num. News, pg.10, a guy who is a new collector/invester "since 1999"

writes saying he needs to raise money for "a project" and he can't get an offer

for even half - of cost"We sell them for half of "...(what I) had origially paid! ; 2) At most recent Baltimore show I needed to sell an '82CC PCGS MS66 to aquire a monster toned '78CC NGC 65. I went to 4 dealers tables I'd never seen and the best offer I got was $800 with ( I now learn ) a greysheet "bid" of $1225. Finally I found the dealer I bought it from, explained that I'd bought several coins and I'd paid $1075 but needed more. He ( Gus Tiso) looked at the coin and cut a check for 1,250!!! Thats not all. He shopped a common date he doesn't sell and brought back a check for $25 more than I asked. I pulled out my wallet to pay him for his effort but he refused a commission or even the extra 25 bucks!!

My question is how could any dealer in it for the long haul sell a new collector coins that aren't even worth half? Gee wiz (zzed) my "select BU " '28 Peace $ from Ken Pines (PCGS 55) at least sold for 25% profit ( from 1999) at Heritage!!! By the way Laura was at B/M auction durning '82CC hassel and yes, I know the '78CC dealer, (local) and the coin was on cash consignment for another customer who didn't want trade. This is just my one experiece with dealer wantabees --buyers AND sellers. I wonder how many other dealers are in for the long haul --STARTING OUT OR Established- and know how to advise us "newbee" customers on good long term buys as well as selling what we might think is eye appealing ( but really's junk) How do I know? "Buy the book" Yes, but where's a book on quick hit artists ? Yes, I've bought one coin from Legend for $895 and love it.

[chinook]

yet they practice self-admiration and blatant prejudice

 

That is what I experienced with Legend in Pittsburgh.

[Tradedollarnut]

If you "lose" and object

 

I usually do object when I lose - is that a problem? [since this was right in the middle of a rant regarding grammer and proper wording, I just couldn't resist!]

 

I can't defend Laura's writing style, but I understand the message. I'm just gonna leave it at this: it is not directed at you guys and you have absolutely no clue as to what is going on in this area. The dealers see it every show, day in day out. In a rising market, just about anyone can put their shingle out and profess to have the knowledge necessary to screen for problems - but they don't. And how does a buyer protect himself? Any suggestions? My own recommendation [and I practice what I preach] is to hook up with a knowledgable full time dealer that has the experience and motivation to keep you out of trouble. Not some mechanic/florist/attorney/collector who is bored with their job and decides they can open an internet shop and sell pretty problem coins on a part time basis. Coins that the real dealers won't touch at a 40% discount, except they pay full bore and then retail them for 50% markup to suckers who fall for glitzy marketing....

 

Welcome to the real world - the crappy side of coins. It's not just brick and mortor ripoff artists, it's fancy marketers professing to know something burying their clients never to return once the market turns south. It ain't a pretty sight and it's a mess that the real dealers are stuck with when the party is over. So chew on that for a bit and get back to me!

[Tradedollarnut]

blatant prejudice

 

Baloney.

[EVillageProwler]

Folks,

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or any other research scientist) to recognize that this is a contentious subject.

 

One thing I will ask as a favor from those who know me: please let's discuss this with a minimum of emotion. I know that we can't stop being human, but I am asking that we try our best to be emotion-free about this so as to provide maximum clarity of discourse.

 

I will add that I totally understand the message of the author, but that I also have information beyond the written text.

 

Regards,

 

EVP

[Hoot]

If you "lose" and object

 

I usually do object when I lose - is that a problem? [since this was right in the middle of a rant regarding grammer and proper wording, I just couldn't resist!]

 

Oh! You got me! (I deserved that. Edited.)

 

I can't defend Laura's writing style, but I understand the message. I'm just gonna leave it at this: it is not directed at you guys and you have absolutely no clue as to what is going on in this area. The dealers see it every show, day in day out. In a rising market, just about anyone can put their shingle out and profess to have the knowledge necessary to screen for problems - but they don't. And how does a buyer protect himself? Any suggestions? My own recommendation [and I practice what I preach] is to hook up with a knowledgable full time dealer that has the experience and motivation to keep you out of trouble. Not some mechanic/florist/attorney/collector who is bored with their job and decides they can open an internet shop and sell pretty problem coins on a part time basis. Coins that the real dealers won't touch at a 40% discount, except they pay full bore and then retail them for 50% markup to suckers who fall for glitzy marketing....

 

Welcome to the real world - the crappy side of coins. It's not just brick and mortor ripoff artists, it's fancy marketers professing to know something burying their clients never to return once the market turns south. It ain't a pretty sight and it's a mess that the real dealers are stuck with when the party is over. So chew on that for a bit and get back to me!

 

What you are saying, Bruce, is fine. It makes good sense. But in what you just said, you did not make broad-sweeping condemnation of any "non-full-time dealer" on the planet, nor did you use derogatory terms in making your point.

 

You are seeing Laura's statement from her side of the fence and I am seeing it from the other. Yours is more a position of "inside" understanding, while mine is the understanding that a reader has when hit with this "Press release." (Personal statement, whatever.) Outside of coins (I say this for perspective), how many times have you heard criticism of a public statement that lends itself to be fully miscontrued? And in this case, is the onus on the reader to interpret what Laura said? Are we to spin her innuendo for her? No. That's her responsibility. (She could use your help - and should get it before releasing statements like the current one.)

 

I will take issue with you regarding prejudice. It is obvious and comes through loud and clear. I have known a number of professionals in trade businesses (mechanics, farming). These people are highly skilled and they get called names (the lowest form of prejudice), such as "grease monkey," until which time a snob needs his/her car fixed. This is only one form of prejudice, the other form is to lump people into a category who don't deserve it, based one one's own slanted persective. That's what Laura did.

 

I am sorry to take issue with you here, Bruce. I regard you highly in this hobby and as a businessman. You are more than coins (yet quite a numismatist), highly skilled in business, and you are a good person. I hate to see what Laura deserves have to be defended by you. Seems to have happened more than once, so it also seems evident where the problem lies.

 

Hoot

[Tradedollarnut]

Hoot: It's ok to say it, Lord knows I do - she's an evil w![!@#%^&^]!

 

But she's right ... too bad she can't write better. Too bad she can't name names and point fingers. Just take it to heart, no matter how flawed it is.

[EVillageProwler]

I totally agree with Hoot that it is the author's responsibility to write in such a way as to facilitate correct understanding of intended message.

 

That being said, what can we do? Some leopards really can't change their spots...

 

EVP

[Morgannut]

Hoot; OK bright people tend to think faster than they can produce perfect grammer

with clean spelling. Laura's clearly intelligent so given her sales volume, perhaps she could hire a secretary to type and post coin images. Given the price points

you sell nickels per your Web Link, your purchasers benifit by the lower overhead setup. Tradedollarnut: The two treads I get from Laura's article are, for higher priced coins: 1)deal with a PNG Guild member ; 2) link up with one or more knowledgeable full time dealers who can provide advice. To some extent I've done this now after a nice cooking on 1 coin that was puttied, another 1 that was "thumbed". By the way I admire your '76 toned TD so much I cloned your username. Thanks, Bill

[Morgannut]

Hoot, By the way I enjoyed your discussion of article. You must have had to grade 80 college midterm exams overnight as a grad assistant too. A permanent scar even if I can't write worth a damn. Thanks for your welcome. Bill

[James_OldeTowne]

To be perfectly honest, the article didn't really evoke much of an emotional reaction from me. Perhaps more than anything, I laughed at the grammatical structure (as if mine's perfect....) and thought overall it was a humorous read.... but that's just me, I like to find the humor in things. In fact, maybe this would be a good article to satire.....

 

I doubt if many people can really take this kind of article seriously, as it seems to be one company's slanted and extremely narrow perception of the coin market. The market is comprised of many collectors, some with very deep pockets (which appears to be Legendcoin's market), but the vast majority of collectors just want to find decent deals on affordable coins. I really don't see how someone like Legendcoin can service that market, and I sincerely believe I can do a much better job than they can helping out collectors whose resources are more the norm.

 

Maybe I'll work on that satire now.....

 

James

[Tradedollarnut]

I really don't see how someone like Legendcoin can service that market, and I sincerely believe I can do a much better job than they can helping out collectors whose resources are more the norm.

 

You are exactly and completely right. That's why I say it was not directed at you in the least. It's directed at so called dealers in Legend's arena who wouldn't think twice about recommending a problem coin at a high price to a 'client' - or don't have the numismatic skills to know it's a problem coin in the first place.

[James_OldeTowne]

Well, in that case, I hope Legendcoin's point gets across. I am also disgusted by certain high-end dealers who have suddenly appeared on the scene just recently, and who don't, in my opinion, have much motive for selling coins other than profit margins.

 

But I therefore think that the article could have been much more carefully written and effective!

 

James

[jom]

and who don't, in my opinion, have much motive for selling coins other than profit margins.

 

That right there would tell you they are a newbie. I'm no dealer but from what I can tell "profit margins" are VERY difficult to obtain in this business....

 

jom

[BillJones]

Laura has put too many self-serving points in this essay. As I read her list of five qualifications, I can say that I have known quite a few dealers over the years who could have all five points applied to them, and "I would not touch them with a 10 foot poll." i.e. I would NEVER do business with them because they were "ethically challenged."

 

*Has been involved in coins for MORE than 5 years.

*Is a FULL TIME dealer-no exceptions!

*Has contacts direct to the MAJOR market makers.

*Attends and sets up at EVERY MAJOR show and most MAJOR auctions.

*Has a real and positive reputation with his peers (this probablyis the MOST critical).

 

I don't support blanket comdemnations of anyone. I deal in specifics.

 

Frankly I'm very disappointed with Laura's essay. There are some serious flaws in her reasoning.

[Here]

It seems to me that if this group of extremely reputable dealers is so very small that it would not be too difficult to compose a list of them. Or better still, if they had membership in some sort of professional organization that a newbie could look to as proof that this is an honost and experienced dealer.

 

This may help some. It's something I always look for in dealers, though not full proof by any means. Check to see if they're members of the ANA and PNG. And if you're not, join the ANA. I have run into start up dealers who aren't even members. As for lists of good and bad, it's mostly networking with fellow collectors.

 

Jerry

[James_OldeTowne]

I used to be a member of the ANA, but have let my membership lapse because I no longer agree with certain of their motivations as applied to collectors. I am also not a member of the PNG, and in fact, the only organized affiliations I have now are with MNS (Missouri Numismatic Society) and ILNA (Illinois Numismatic Association). But I still think most anyone who has done business with me would consider me a good coin dealer.

 

For one thing, my business standards, such as return policies and such, far exceed those suggested by the ANA.

 

James

[BillJones]

The ANA has had a bad history of getting caught in bed with a VERY large dealer who qualified for all 5 items on Laura's list in spades about a decade ago. The cause was a LARGE infusion of cash to the organization from that dealer. The fallout from that in the numismatic press were not pretty.

 

ANA membership for a dealer means one of three things:

 

1. You are ethical.

 

2. You are unethical, but you have paid penance (which can be a good or bad thing) and are back in the organizaiton's good graces.

 

3. You are a crook, but you have not been caught yet.

 

Mere membership in the ANA does not cut it for me. I have to know more.

[Leothelion]

I believe the article is pointless! The group of people Laura has targeted are people who want a piece of the action all the new collectors have generated! There's no way of educating all these people before they get hurt. Veteran collectors and dealers are not going to fall to these imposter's tactics! I would be careful in putting myself is any of these catigories outlined in Laura's article!

I only saw one fine line drawn in the generalizations towards any group of people. Every collector needs to recognize the level of sophisication a dealer may possess before buying coins.

But there's nothing new here in Laura's article, it's been "buyer beware" for as long as I can remember!

People, many of these new collectors are about as smart as a hippo in a barn!

If someone comes off the streets into a coin show and one of these so and so dealers sell him a $10,000 coin that he has no clue about, there's really nothing anyone can do about it. The hobby is full of these people!

But if there are new collectors reading into Laura's article or this forum for that matter, if there's a lesson here to be learned, take the time to learn about the person/dealer you may be doing business with. Find out if they can be trusted by getting to know them, by asking around if they have a good reputation in dealing with other dealers and collectors.

But like I said, the only people who are going to get hurt are the new collectors. Because there are shysters out there, in all walks of life, who are eagerly waiting to take their money.

 

This stuff is not

 

Leo

[DaveG]

(I can't resist):

 

1. Was I the only one who enjoyed the witty post by James_EarlyUS that described how he was one of the people that Laura was talking about?

 

2. No more vague hints! I want scurilous gossip!! I want names named, fingers pointed, etc.! (Lots of hair-pulling and bad language would be good, too!) If you're too shy to make a public post, please pm me. Do I have to wait for Baltimore to hear some good dirt? (Have a heart, guys!)

 

3. Laura's post certainly doesn't apply to TomB, because it clearly applies to people who sell coins. Anyone who knows Tom knows he really doesn't do this. (hee, hee!!) (Bringing a couple of coins to torment Jeremy with doesn't count, either.)

[golfnut99-migration]

One thing about Laura's posts; she is entertaining. You can agree with her, disagree, or both, but, she does know how to push the right buttons to get the

pot boiling. Heh!