1885 Morgan -- Overdipped?

[wdrob]

 

 

I know this has been dipped. No question I would say there. But does it look as though there is absolutely no luster remaining and just a nice paper weight?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I only paid a little for it simply because the fields and cheek and other areas were so clean and free of bag marks. I will just have to wait to get the coin in hand to see if the lack of luster is as bad as it seems or if it was just the camera settings and environment. I have been pleasantly surprised before. Maybe this will be one of those times. However it looks like it might have been polished as well, so paper weight it might very well be.

 

 

 

[BillJones]

I would say that it has been whizzed or polished. Over dipped coins usually have a dull, washed out appearance. This piece looks like it has fake luster from having the metal moved, not removed by chemicals.

[Dudley the 1st]

I would agree and suspect this piece was " whizzed" .

[wdrob]

OK.

 

It is always a shame when someone takes, what would have been a nice MS coin and essentially destroys any future collector value.

 

Sure is a pretty piece though with very little in the bag marks department. Maybe whizzing caused that too but I don't think whizzing was able to create the detail it has so based on that I would assume it was once a nice coin.

 

Thanks for the opinions.

 

 

[BillJones]

OK.

 

It is always a shame when someone takes, what would have been a nice MS coin and essentially destroys any future collector value.

 

Sure is a pretty piece though with very little in the bag marks department. Maybe whizzing caused that too but I don't think whizzing was able to create the detail it has so based on that I would assume it was once a nice coin.

 

Thanks for the opinions.

 

 

Whizzing cannot create added detail, but it can create false luster and can cover up small scratches because it involves the movement of metal on the surface of the coin. The same is true for polishing.

 

Sometimes you will early large cents that appear to have very smooth surfaces where you would expect to see porosity. In more than a few occasions the surfaces have been smoothed over to do away with the porosity, and the coin looks better than it actually is.

 

[johnny9434]

it looks polished to me as well. still a nice paper weight like you said. no harm done

[coinman_23885]

It is more than just a dip; the coin has been polished. You are correct that it is a bullion piece. It would make an interesting paper weight (seriously).

[Mark T]

Come on guys that is a GSC Gem Bu ++++++

 

I think I saw the listing on EBAY ( not GSC) , if I am correct you paid $52 for this ??

[wdrob]

I'd have to look but I think I paid about $61 .....Yes I just checked $61.68 is what I paid. So I paid three times spot but like I said I can't say that I wasn't bedraggled in my opinion ....I knew it wasn't a right piece. Just sure was pretty. Maybe after a few months of toning I might be able to do something with it.

 

I bought and had a Stone Mountain slabbed a while back (you folks might remember it coming back cleaned), and that thing has already started toning over very well. I thought it would take multiple years but I bet a year maybe a year and a half and that Stone Mountain will be ready for another try.

 

 

[jerseycat10]

 

I bought and had a Stone Mountain slabbed a while back (you folks might remember it coming back cleaned), and that thing has already started toning over very well. I thought it would take multiple years but I bet a year maybe a year and a half and that Stone Mountain will be ready for another try.

 

 

Having a coin tone-over will not change the fact that it was cleaned. It will likely body bag again and again.

[coinman_23885]

 

I bought and had a Stone Mountain slabbed a while back (you folks might remember it coming back cleaned), and that thing has already started toning over very well. I thought it would take multiple years but I bet a year maybe a year and a half and that Stone Mountain will be ready for another try.

 

 

Having a coin tone-over will not change the fact that it was cleaned. It will likely body bag again and again.

 

I very much agree with you, but will qualify my answer a bit. Sometimes after several years of toning, an old light cleaning may become more difficult to spot and for this reason, I have seen some make it into TPG slabs (although in theory this shouldn't happen). More importantly, this coin wasn't just cleaned; it was whizzed and/or polished which involves the movement of metal. This will never tone over.

[wdrob]

It is more than just a dip; the coin has been polished. You are correct that it is a bullion piece. It would make an interesting paper weight (seriously).

 

Someone contacted me about it already with interest in the coin. They are heavily involved in studying different variations ... Something to do with Vam World. Any way I am pretty much going to donate this piece to them for the studies that they are conducting. I may get a NGC slabbed Silver State Quarter that I don't have out of the deal or something else that they don't need in a slab but I gave them the option of just accepting it for free as well.

 

But I agree with you. That would have made for a good paperweight for real. Nice looking Morgan. Just doctored it would seem.

[$ilverHawk]

 

I bought and had a Stone Mountain slabbed a while back (you folks might remember it coming back cleaned), and that thing has already started toning over very well. I thought it would take multiple years but I bet a year maybe a year and a half and that Stone Mountain will be ready for another try.

 

 

Having a coin tone-over will not change the fact that it was cleaned. It will likely body bag again and again.

 

I very much agree with you, but will qualify my answer a bit. Sometimes after several years of toning, an old light cleaning may become more difficult to spot and for this reason, I have seen some make it into TPG slabs (although in theory this shouldn't happen). More importantly, this coin wasn't just cleaned; it was whizzed and/or polished which involves the movement of metal. This will never tone over.

 

I agree with other posters that this coin has been polished and maybe whizzed . I disagree that the coin will never tone over.

 

When the surface of a coin is compromised by polishing or whizzing the metal of the coin is fully exposed to the ambient environment and will tone/oxidize much more rapidly than a coin that has not been subjected to the same surface destruction.

 

I speak from direct experience. I purchased an 1836 CBH which was clearly polished--an experiment. I placed this coin in a Meghrig album along with several other CBH s that have original skins. After 18 months, the 1836 polished CBH is rim toning much more rapidly than any other coins in the same album. Pretty toning but still toning on a coin with surface alteration.

 

Carl

[wdrob]

Sometimes after several years of toning, an old light cleaning may become more difficult to spot and for this reason, I have seen some make it into TPG slabs (although in theory this shouldn't happen). More importantly, this coin wasn't just cleaned; it was whizzed and/or polished which involves the movement of metal. This will never tone over.

 

Yeah I really did not expect for time and toning to fix this coin. However that Stone Mountain came back as Cleaned - Unc Details. Not improperly cleaned or any other label. Just UNC Details Cleaned. I don't know if there is a difference in cleaned and improperly cleaned but there must be since on some labels I see Improperly Cleaned and others I see just Cleaning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it was one of those that was 'lightly' cleaned and the toning that has taken place so far has already made that coin look like it had not been cleaned. In a few more months I expect that coin to have a good coat of toning on it. In a year.... who knows.

 

Truth of the matter is that many of the 1700 and 1800 era coins that are slabbed right now have been cleaned at least once in their life time. Whether it was cleaned by rubbing it on their shirt tail or another way ... chances are it has been cleaned in some manner. Yet age and toning did it's trick and allowed it to be graded. That of-course is my opinion since I have no facts to back that up with.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

 

I bought and had a Stone Mountain slabbed a while back (you folks might remember it coming back cleaned), and that thing has already started toning over very well. I thought it would take multiple years but I bet a year maybe a year and a half and that Stone Mountain will be ready for another try.

 

 

Having a coin tone-over will not change the fact that it was cleaned. It will likely body bag again and again.

 

I very much agree with you, but will qualify my answer a bit. Sometimes after several years of toning, an old light cleaning may become more difficult to spot and for this reason, I have seen some make it into TPG slabs (although in theory this shouldn't happen). More importantly, this coin wasn't just cleaned; it was whizzed and/or polished which involves the movement of metal. This will never tone over.

 

I agree with other posters that this coin has been polished and maybe whizzed . I disagree that the coin will never tone over.

 

When the surface of a coin is compromised by polishing or whizzing the metal of the coin is fully exposed to the ambient environment and will tone/oxidize much more rapidly than a coin that has not been subjected to the same surface destruction.

 

I speak from direct experience. I purchased an 1836 CBH which was clearly polished--an experiment. I placed this coin in a Meghrig album along with several other CBH s that have original skins. After 18 months, the 1836 polished CBH is rim toning much more rapidly than any other coins in the same album. Pretty toning but still toning on a coin with surface alteration.

 

Carl

 

What I meant is that the problem will never "tone over" (i.e. go away), using the latter as a figure of speech to mean that the coin is unlikely to ever be considered "market acceptable" or find its way into a normal TPG slab the way that some lightly cleaned coins have in the past after several years worth of toning. As a Capped Bust Half collector, I am sure that you have seen this phenomenon, especially with older holder coins which were silently netgraded or that just slid by the TPGs. My point was that light hairlines can sometimes be obscured by toning, but I suspect that toning will not hide severe surface damage like a whizzing or polishing. Sometimes the former slide by the TPGs, while I doubt this would happen very often with the latter. I apologize for the lack of precision in my original post.

 

On another note, I find your experiment fascinating. It makes sense to me, but I have to admit that I would not have necessarily expected the result without experimentation (or having accounts from others who have done it first hand). Thank you for sharing.

[wdrob]

 

 

I received this coin back on 4/16/2013 so it has been (roughly) coming up on 3 months. This is the amount of toning in three months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can compare that to the picture of it inside the slab when I received it back. I do not have it in any book or folder. I just have it sitting upright on the deck of a large wooden ship model that I have sitting on top of the safe.

 

If it has toned that much in less than three months then a year should make a big difference to that coin. All I do is rotate the coin about once every two weeks or so.

 

 

[BillJones]

A "tone over" is not going to fix that Stone Mountain commemorative half dollar. The coin's surfaces have been fundamentally altered, and that will show though the toning to an experienced grader. Over time some coins that have been dipped can re-tone very nicely, but a piece that has been whizzed or polished will never look right.

 

Sometimes the stuff the coin doctors use accelerates the re-toning process. They often don't rinse the coin completely, and the chemicals in the stuff react with the metal.

 

In addition the expose of "virgin metal" below the surface will result in accelerated toning. Mother nature is always looking to return the things that we make into their elemental state, and toning is part of that process. Although it might not seem like it on a bright white silver coin, that piece does have a very thin layer of oxidation that retards the toning process. When you remove that layer, you expose metal that has no such protection, and the toning process begins anew.

[MarkFeld]

Sometimes after several years of toning, an old light cleaning may become more difficult to spot and for this reason, I have seen some make it into TPG slabs (although in theory this shouldn't happen). More importantly, this coin wasn't just cleaned; it was whizzed and/or polished which involves the movement of metal. This will never tone over.

 

Yeah I really did not expect for time and toning to fix this coin. However that Stone Mountain came back as Cleaned - Unc Details. Not improperly cleaned or any other label. Just UNC Details Cleaned. I don't know if there is a difference in cleaned and improperly cleaned but there must be since on some labels I see Improperly Cleaned and others I see just Cleaning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it was one of those that was 'lightly' cleaned and the toning that has taken place so far has already made that coin look like it had not been cleaned. In a few more months I expect that coin to have a good coat of toning on it. In a year.... who knows.

 

Truth of the matter is that many of the 1700 and 1800 era coins that are slabbed right now have been cleaned at least once in their life time. Whether it was cleaned by rubbing it on their shirt tail or another way ... chances are it has been cleaned in some manner. Yet age and toning did it's trick and allowed it to be graded. That of-course is my opinion since I have no facts to back that up with.

 

 

There is no meaningful distinction between "cleaned" and "improperly cleaned" on an NGC or PCGS grading label. In each case, it indicates that the grading company felt the cleaning was significant enough to negate awarding a numerical grade. Said another way, the cleaning merited a no-grade.

[wdrob]

A "tone over" is not going to fix that Stone Mountain commemorative half dollar. The coin's surfaces have been fundamentally altered, and that will show though the toning to an experienced grader. Over time some coins that have been dipped can re-tone very nicely, but a piece that has been whizzed or polished will never look right.

 

That may in fact be completely true however I have nothing else to do with this coin other than to experiment with it and see what happens. I find it very interesting that this coin is toning as quickly as it is.

 

I am not the type that will buy a coin, find that it has been altered, and then sell it to some other unsuspecting and naive buyer. I would rather take the loss and take the coin out of the auctioning circuit. There are, however, members of this forum and the forum ATS that I know have sold ME altered coins that they knew were altered. Apparently they do not adhere to the same philosophy.

 

They are the same kind of people that will be standing in line at the register waiting to be checked out and see the guy in front of them drop a $20 bill while reaching into his pocket and will not say a thing. They will place their foot on top of it until that person leaves and then pocket it.

 

 

[BillJones]

For reference purposes here is a toned, original surface Stone Mountain half dollar that has been graded MS-65.

 

[wdrob]

Nice!

 

Looks like the toning on mine is heading in a similar direction. The small patch I have there already, to me, matches the coloring of the complete toning yours has.

 

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

Please try to understand. The color of the toning is NOT what matters; it's the surfaces UNDER the toning.

 

Do you see bright and shiny under the toning of my piece? No. You see the frosted surfaces of a true Mint State coin. Learn to tell the difference between polished, whizzed or Mint State, or get ready to get shafted.

 

Your coin is dead in the water; toning can't save it. I've been there, done that and learned from the experience when I was 20+ years old, which I'm sorry say was over 40 years ago.

[wdrob]

Please try to understand. The color of the toning is NOT what matters; it's the surfaces UNDER the toning.

 

I thought we got that out of the way two posts back. I think you misunderstood this last post I made.

 

The "Nice!" by me was not that the one I had pictured was on it's way to being a 'fixed' coin. It was a comment as to the degree of quality of the piece you presented.

 

The comment about the color was just an observation on my part that the coloring of the toning that is taking place on my coin is close to the color of the coin you presented. Just that; simply an observation.

 

As I said previously there are only a few options available for that coin I have. I don't melt silver so that is out of the question. I do not sell coins that I know to be flawed (unless a person wants a coin and knows it has flaws) so that is out of the question. So as I see it there is only another option for me and that is too watch this coin tone over a period of time.

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Please try to understand. The color of the toning is NOT what matters; it's the surfaces UNDER the toning.

 

I thought we got that out of the way two posts back. I think you misunderstood this last post I made.

 

The "Nice!" by me was not that the one I had pictured was on it's way to being a 'fixed' coin. It was a comment as to the degree of quality of the piece you presented.

 

The comment about the color was just an observation on my part that the coloring of the toning that is taking place on my coin is close to the color of the coin you presented. Just that; simply an observation.

 

As I said previously there are only a few options available for that coin I have. I don't melt silver so that is out of the question. I do not sell coins that I know to be flawed (unless a person wants a coin and knows it has flaws) so that is out of the question. So as I see it there is only another option for me and that is too watch this coin tone over a period of time.

 

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with selling a problem coin and describing it as such. Yes, a future owner might sell it and not disclose the problem(s). But that should not be the problem of the current owner.

[wdrob]

 

I agree completely.

[slingshot-migration]

Whizzed coins sometimes look quite good. I bought one and didn't know it untill I sent it for grading! So $52 if that is what you paid isn't an outrageous price to pay for it. Save your money and don't send it for grading.

[slingshot-migration]

$61 isn't terrible for a cleaned Morgan. 1proudpapa on Ebay sells $2.50 indian quarter eagles cleaned for $150+ more than their worth. Another cleaned Indian quarter eagle seller is jrcoins2210 and he sells a lot of bullion on Ebay and silver eagles also. Stay away from these 2 as they'll take you to the cleaners for well over $100 per coin for their treacherous sales tactics.

[coinman_23885]

$61 isn't terrible for a cleaned Morgan. 1proudpapa on Ebay sells $2.50 indian quarter eagles cleaned for $150+ more than their worth. Another cleaned Indian quarter eagle seller is jrcoins2210 and he sells a lot of bullion on Ebay and silver eagles also. Stay away from these 2 as they'll take you to the cleaners for well over $100 per coin for their treacherous sales tactics.

 

I beg to differ. A few sales do not constitute the entire market. Moreover, the respective markets of both gold and Morgan Dollars are very different. A problem, common date Morgan Dollar is a melt value coin. $61 is way too much, but as long as the original poster is satisfied with the coin, that's what truly matters.

[Mark T]

$61 isn't terrible for a cleaned Morgan. 1proudpapa on Ebay sells $2.50 indian quarter eagles cleaned for $150+ more than their worth. Another cleaned Indian quarter eagle seller is jrcoins2210 and he sells a lot of bullion on Ebay and silver eagles also. Stay away from these 2 as they'll take you to the cleaners for well over $100 per coin for their treacherous sales tactics.

 

 

Slingshot I see you are at it again slamming Ebay sellers because you got suckered into buying some bad coins. Learn what to look for and then maybe you won’t purchase cleaned coins. As for Jrcoins, you could not tell it was cleaned when you had it in hand so you sent it in to be graded, it comes back in a details holder and you think the seller tried to scam you. Once again if you had a clue you would have returned the coin and not wasted the time or money to send it in for a grade. How do you know Jrcoins intentionally sold you a cleaned coin? This guy sells mostly bullion and modern stuff. This seller is not a scammer – so stop with the posts saying that he is.

[wdrob]

 

 

I received that 1885 Morgan in the mail yesterday or the day before and I have taken a few photos and Microscopic photos as well. I am still so saddened that people will destroy such a nice coin just to clean the surface.

 

Thought I would share some of the slightly better pictures even though it still remains a cleaned or whizzed coin.

 

The entire album of all pictures is Located Here.

 

Nice looking die crack on this one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh well... I guess it is off to VAM studies.