This is why CAC fails to impress me

[Kurtdog]

This is a good post and let me ask a follow up question; considering how many collectors in the hobby focus on the financial portion of the hobby to a degree or another. With all things being similar and the coin inside being the same coin with the same grade on the different holders mentioned above. Would the market price the coin differently in the 8 different scenarios on avg and if so, what order would the market price them? I guess people confuse coin quality with brand value. I think most real collectors would admit there are the full spectrum of coins and grade accuracy in all holders esp the top two.

 

Their is a 2nd problem that affects NGC that I don't see discussed outside of advanced circles. It is that PCGS and NGC have different absolute standards and criteria and PCGS grades some things loosely and others tight as does NGC. I am often much more impressed with the Franklins I see in NGC holders not to mention the * and PL grades are an important niches.

 

The rub come that NGC has a more classic technical perspective (highpoint rub) on xf-AU-low MS coin grading and PCGS actually market grades for the most part as does CAC. PCGS puts a lot more weight on luster and field friction than NGC and because of this side by side graded examples will have more POP being in the PCGS plastic as they are really a couple of market grades higher. It becomes a self fulfilling cycle that PCGS grades to market tastes and the market tastes point to PCGS. And considering that the xf-AU-low MS market makes up the majority of the collector market, the difference is disproportionally pointed at avg collectors. The fact that CAC also market grades add to a false sense of validation for the standard thus making the gap wider than it ever has been before between PCGS and NGC.

 

This is exacerbated by dealers knowing what most coins will grade before submitting them and cherry picking NGC when their liner coin is an XF45 at PCGS with muted luster and an AU53 at NGC due to minimal highpoint rub. Collectors buy (at AU money) and try to cross because of the PCGS registry affect only to find out they over paid for their new PCGS XF45 and they become burned on NGC unfairly when it was the dealer who burned them aided by their lack of understanding.

 

IMO NGC is at a tipping point brand identity wise where they will have to address the shrinking confidence in their product by conforming to a market standard or focus in on economy services and collector niches. Just my

Good insights. They've been facing this dilemma for quite some time. I think they know what they're doing, though. ATS, they're fluff, market-making. That's their business model, from start to finish.

[19Lyds]

If you take a coin in a slab and demand payment to guarantee it's on the high side (or above) for the grade assigned, why would it matter who's slab it's in?

 

The coin either is or it isn't. I don't get why CAC limits their confirmations to just NGC and PCGS slabbed coins.

 

In my opinion a coin in an ANACS or ICG holder (or others) becomes a candidate for crack out just because it's in the wrong holder. This just inflates the actual number of coins known to exist in a given grade making them seem more plentiful than they actually are.

 

End of Rant/

CAC Limits their confirmations to NGC and PCGS simply because both of those entities guarantee their grades with a market buyback. (CASH)

 

Non of the other TPG's offer this.

 

The bottom line is that CAC guarantees their "opinions" with a cash buyback and if something turned out wrong in their "opinion" (i.e. something was missed) then they at least have the TPG to fall back on for compensation.

 

It only makes sense and they have "created" a market of sorts. I'm just not into that type of market though. Dealers, on the other hand, HAVE to be into that market to be competitive which is where the bulk of CAC's submissions come from (just like the TPG's!).

[coinman_23885]

If you take a coin in a slab and demand payment to guarantee it's on the high side (or above) for the grade assigned, why would it matter who's slab it's in?

 

The coin either is or it isn't. I don't get why CAC limits their confirmations to just NGC and PCGS slabbed coins.

 

In my opinion a coin in an ANACS or ICG holder (or others) becomes a candidate for crack out just because it's in the wrong holder. This just inflates the actual number of coins known to exist in a given grade making them seem more plentiful than they actually are.

 

End of Rant/

CAC Limits their confirmations to NGC and PCGS simply because both of those entities guarantee their grades with a market buyback. (CASH)

 

Non of the other TPG's offer this.

 

The bottom line is that CAC guarantees their "opinions" with a cash buyback and if something turned out wrong in their "opinion" (i.e. something was missed) then they at least have the TPG to fall back on for compensation.

 

It only makes sense and they have "created" a market of sorts. I'm just not into that type of market though. Dealers, on the other hand, HAVE to be into that market to be competitive which is where the bulk of CAC's submissions come from (just like the TPG's!).

 

Actually ICG does. I think ANACS might (for the newer holder coins only). I have never sent any coins in under their guarantee; thus, I have never tested how strong they are, but my understanding is that they are similar to those offered by PCGS and NGC. The loophole, like with all TPG guarantees, is whether they agree that they erred before making a pay out.

[Kurtdog]

Does CAC say they sticker only PCGS and NGC coins? I don't know. I'm just asking. Personally, I think they can stick their stickers in their ear. I have no use for them.

[AnkurJ]

...what we need is a CAC checker.

 

You have one - it's called the marketplace. So far, passing with flying colors.

 

agreed 101%

[Raisethis2]

I appreciate the many thoughtful responses. It helps to get a better and more rounded vision of things going on within the industry.

 

I still feel that any coin submitted should get a thumbs up or thumbs down regardless of the TPG plastic. To a collector it's all about the coin. The fact that CAC will return a coin not achieving a sticker at no charge is new information to me. I think that's bad business since just as some will crack out a coin and submit it over and over again until they finally get the grade they want, the same thing seems possible for the green bean. The bonus is that re-submissions for the bean cost nothing (over and over again).

 

Now I also understand that the many Dealers whom have weighed in have a different view. They rely on the bean as a guarantee to the potential buyer that the coin is what it appears to be and this exceedingly well qualified "Independent" 3rd party confirms that fact.

 

For a few bucks per coin it's very cheap insurance and (at least around here) a coin with a bean commands "moon money" so I expect the Dealers who submit coins for bean consideration don't lose anything in the long run.

 

The fact that NGC and PCGS "guarantee" submissions and how that fits with the work CAC does confuses me. What they do is sticker coins that are solid for the grade. they don't verify attributions, Overton's, strike designations like FSB and FBL etc. do they?

 

NGC and PCGS have different business models. I've seen a little of the different grading standard absolutes myself. I've never considered it the way crypto79 laid it out. Interesting take.

 

Thanks again for the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

[cameron12x]

I've seen CAC'ed coins I love and also those which I wonder how they even slabbed in the first place.

 

But it makes perfect sense why CAC only accepts NGC and PCGS slabs.

[FishyOne]

Coins submitted to CAC by dealers are charged a fee regardless of whether the coin passes CAC or not. Collector/members to CAC still get a "freebie" if the coin does not pass. At least this is what I understood when speaking with one of the pleasant gals at CAC on the phone last month.

 

 

P.S. I would be nice if CAC accepted ANACS slabs also but they don't so that is that.

[BillJones]

I still feel that any coin submitted should get a thumbs up or thumbs down regardless of the TPG plastic. To a collector it's all about the coin.

 

If you spend some time reading many of the posts ATS, you find that that is not the case. For them it is PCGS or nothing, and the coin is really secondary. For a growing number it is PCGS + CAC or nothing.

[World Colonial]

I still feel that any coin submitted should get a thumbs up or thumbs down regardless of the TPG plastic. To a collector it's all about the coin.

 

If you spend some time reading many of the posts ATS, you find that that is not the case. For them it is PCGS or nothing, and the coin is really secondary. For a growing number it is PCGS + CAC or nothing.

 

I do not post over there (yet) but this makes sense for someone who places the financial considerations first, which is going to be disproportionately true when "real money" in involved. If coins cost much less like they used to decades ago (even relative to everything else) far fewer would care.

[WoodenJefferson]

I still feel that any coin submitted should get a thumbs up or thumbs down regardless of the TPG plastic. To a collector it's all about the coin.

 

If you spend some time reading many of the posts ATS, you find that that is not the case. For them it is PCGS or nothing, and the coin is really secondary. For a growing number it is PCGS + CAC or nothing.

 

I would like to add to this knowledge that there are a certain percent of 'collectors' and I use that term loosely, who care nothing about what resides inside the slab, but only wanting the grade attained to bolster their 'registry points' ~sigh~

 

 

[e1cnr]

...what we need is a CAC checker.

 

You have one - it's called the marketplace. So far, passing with flying colors.

 

agreed 101%

 

Some people seem to need CAC to tell them if they like the coin - not sure if you need CAC, why you don't buy CAC, or expect to be able to return a purchase a few weeks later because it did not CAC (I guess maybe some people are in hobby for money rather than enjoyment).

[jom]

...what we need is a CAC checker.

 

You have one - it's called the marketplace. So far, passing with flying colors.

 

agreed 101%

 

Some people seem to need CAC to tell them if they like the coin - not sure if you need CAC, why you don't buy CAC, or expect to be able to return a purchase a few weeks later because it did not CAC (I guess maybe some people are in hobby for money rather than enjoyment).

 

Yes, this is most certainly true. I do not know what percentage of collectors out there have this "issue" but they certainly exist.

 

I also believe the Registry thing is similar. Some collectors need to have that pat on the back or whatever. I guess it comes with the territory....maybe...

 

jom

[crypto79-migration]

I still feel that any coin submitted should get a thumbs up or thumbs down regardless of the TPG plastic. To a collector it's all about the coin.

 

If you spend some time reading many of the posts ATS, you find that that is not the case. For them it is PCGS or nothing, and the coin is really secondary. For a growing number it is PCGS + CAC or nothing.

 

I do not post over there (yet) but this makes sense for someone who places the financial considerations first, which is going to be disproportionately true when "real money" in involved. If coins cost much less like they used to decades ago (even relative to everything else) far fewer would care.

 

This is rational, and most collectors put financial considerations first or at least a close 2nd. To turn the blind cheek to decreased lquidity is a suckers bet unless you are a purest which few are.

[Tradedollarnut]

...what we need is a CAC checker.

 

You have one - it's called the marketplace. So far, passing with flying colors.

 

agreed 101%

 

Some people seem to need CAC to tell them if they like the coin - not sure if you need CAC, why you don't buy CAC, or expect to be able to return a purchase a few weeks later because it did not CAC (I guess maybe some people are in hobby for money rather than enjoyment).

 

Ah, to be blissfully ignorant again about what the coin docs can do to the coins I collect. Twas much simpler and peaceful then....

[RWB]

"CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..."

 

If correct, this sounds like compromised objectivity.

[FishyOne]

"CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..."

 

If correct, this sounds like compromised objectivity.

 

CAC reviews all classic U.S. coins, many of which they have no desire to buy. That's not to say they don't desire to make a market in some series' they sticker........

[RWB]

Then why object to NGC or PCGS doing the same?

[FishyOne]

Then why object to NGC or PCGS doing the same?

 

You mean have PCGS or NGC dealers also be their graders?

[Tradedollarnut]

"CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..."

 

If correct, this sounds like compromised objectivity.

 

It usually helps to explain an empty assertion such as the one you made. There is no basis for it whatsoever.

[orifdoc]

Just a few of my random thoughts.

 

1) Don't forget that only the TPG's get a chance to see and handle the coins out of plastic. I'm 100% certain there are coins with "invisible" rim problems out there wearing gold beans.

 

2) When you get a second opinion, remember the second opinion is often biased by the first opinion. True in real estate, true in medicine, true in everything.

 

3) Each grading service has its own criteria and they're all different.

 

4) Really great coins have always sold at a premium.

[RWB]

Tradedollarnut:

 

The quote, "CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..." came from your post made on this thread (#6705778 - Yesterday at 10:33 AM). It's the fourth post.

 

Why don't you 'splain it to us poor, stupid peasants.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Tradedollarnut:

 

The quote, "CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..." came from your post made on this thread (#6705778 - Yesterday at 10:33 AM). It's the fourth post.

 

Why don't you 'splain it to us poor, stupid peasants.

 

 

No need to explain it - it's a straightforward assertion of fact. Why don't YOU explain your assertion that it represents a conflict of interest. How so? Do tell...

 

Oh - and cut the attitude. /eyeroll

[Coinbuf]

No need to explain it - it's a straightforward assertion of fact. Why don't YOU explain your assertion that it represents a conflict of interest. How so? Do tell...

 

TDN does not need me to interject but what he said is in fact the truth and I know this as JA explained it to a few of us that were involved in one of the fireside chats. Does it present a conflict of interest yes to some degree but thats nothing compaired to the new ATS policy on upgrades and the fees thay are charging customers for getting the grade correct the second time around. Now thats a real conflict of interest, totally blows me away how the brown-noses ATS are praising ownership for finding ways to charge customers more for less.

[Kurtdog]

Tradedollarnut:

 

The quote, "CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..." came from your post made on this thread (#6705778 - Yesterday at 10:33 AM). It's the fourth post.

 

Why don't you 'splain it to us poor, stupid peasants.

No need to explain it - it's a straightforward assertion of fact. Why don't YOU explain your assertion that it represents a conflict of interest. How so? Do tell...

 

Oh - and cut the attitude. /eyeroll

A grader bidding on its coins in the market is manipulating the market for its coins. It's not rocket science.

[RWB]

Tradedollarnut:

 

The quote, "CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..." came from your post made on this thread (#6705778 - Yesterday at 10:33 AM). It's the fourth post.

 

Why don't you 'splain it to us poor, stupid peasants.

 

 

No need to explain it - it's a straightforward assertion of fact. Why don't YOU explain your assertion that it represents a conflict of interest. How so? Do tell...

 

Oh - and cut the attitude. /eyeroll

 

Awww...were you caught with your ethical pants down -- or is it just your inflated ego that's injured?

 

Even us poor, stupid peasants can understand that if a business rates or otherwise qualifies coins so it can "make a market in them" there is obviously impaired objectivity. But, then, your "ethical standards" are so clearly superior to us po' folk, that no one could possibly challenge you.

 

[Raisethis2]

It's my understanding that to become a grader for the big 2 you cannot deal or collect coins yourself. This eliminates any conflict of interest potential. Now I'm to understand that CAC as a part of it's business philosophy puts their thumb on the scale on certain coins to make the market in them?

 

If any part of that observation is true then something is very very corrupt in this process.

[halfpint]

If any part of that observation is true then something is very very corrupt in this process.

 

...yeah, and corruption has no place here............only in gubmint!

[BillJones]

Tradedollarnut:

 

The quote, "CAC exists to make a market in coins it desires to buy..." came from your post made on this thread (#6705778 - Yesterday at 10:33 AM). It's the fourth post.

 

Why don't you 'splain it to us poor, stupid peasants.

 

 

No need to explain it - it's a straightforward assertion of fact. Why don't YOU explain your assertion that it represents a conflict of interest. How so? Do tell...

 

Oh - and cut the attitude. /eyeroll

 

Awww...were you caught with your ethical pants down -- or is it just your inflated ego that's injured?

 

Even us poor, stupid peasants can understand that if a business rates or otherwise qualifies coins so it can "make a market in them" there is obviously impaired objectivity. But, then, your "ethical standards" are so clearly superior to us po' folk, that no one could possibly challenge you.

 

TDN has hitched his business star to the CAC comet and one should take that into consideration when one reads his posts. CAC is infallible so far as he is concerned. For those us who follow the issue, it was well known that some coins have been CAC'd and de-CAC'd because of certain issues.

 

I have yet to see any service or system that is 100% infallible.

 

[wdrob]

It's my understanding that to become a grader for the big 2 you cannot deal or collect coins yourself.

 

I believe they can not be a dealer but they can freely collect coins. I think I remember reading that.