1851 Gold $1 - 1926 S Oregon Half Comm - 46 Walking Half

[wdrob]

 

I am sure that I paid way to much for this coin and I went against the voice inside telling me no because it may be Improperly Cleaned but I got caught up in the "man I really want that coin" mentality.

 

Anyway....any opinions please. I don't have it in hand at this time but think these pictures are OK enough for some to opine.

 

 

 

 

Once again I think I came close to paying too much for this one too but I just really had to have it. Although there are some areas that have some abrasions there are fields that are without any scratches or traces of cleaning. I really think this coin is a keeper. Probably wrong but with only 83,055 minted, and far less than that that remain, I think I may have been OK buying it. With the highest population being MS65 I based that as my absolute cut off point. I think it might be one level higher. Or I could be just showing my complete ignorance to the hobby... Don't know.

 

 

 

 

And finally I bought this one for a good price I think. I don't feel nearly as worried on this one as the others.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway I am prepared for the opinions and would welcome them.

 

Thanks

 

[BillJones]

I hope that you will take this advice in the spirit that it is given ...

 

First I don't know why you are paying prices that you consider to be high for raw coins, especially raw coins that you are evaluating from pictures. Although NGC and PCGS grading is not perfect, it does filter virtually all of the really bad problems like counterfeits and badly cleaned coins. For those rare instances where those companies might make a mistake, they do have guarantees to provide you with some protection.

 

My approach to raw coins is that I should be getting them for less money than I would pay for certified pieces. First, if I want the coins to be certified I have to lay out my money to get it done. Second, if there is a problem, at least I have paid a lower price. Having said this let's look at what you are buying.

 

First, gold dollars, especially the Type I pieces (1849 to mid 1854) are among the most counterfeited among all gold coins. If I were to buy one raw I'd look at it six ways to Sunday in person before I would buy it, and I've been a collector for over 50 years and was a dealer for over a decade.

 

The piece you have purchased has the general look a Mint State coin, and it appears to be genuine. Having said that I see a lot of small marks that might lead me to believe that will grade somewhere in the MS-62 or 63 range.

 

The 1926-S Oregon Trail half dollar has the highest mintage in the series. A mintage of "only" 83,055 is nothing to get excited about because it is the highest mintage by wide margin among the Oregon Trail half dollars. Finding this coin at a show is not hard. Most of the commemorative half dollars were saved in quantity and many of them are in Mint State.

 

You can't compare the mintage of a commemorative half dollar to that of a regular issue coin because they had different use patterns. Most business strike coins were used and worn in circulation; most commemoratives were saved and not spent. A mintage of 83 thousand for a business strike coin is quite different for such a mintage for a commemorative. For a commemorative half dollar a net issue mintage (number of coins minted minus the number returned to the mint and melted) of 83 thousand is not "low." In fact it is pretty high.

 

The photos of this coin is over exposed so it is hard to grade it. My educated guess is that it falls somewhere in the AU-55 to MS-63 range although the overexposure could be hiding some cleaning and some wear. There might be some flat wear spots on the Indian's thighs the oxen and figures on the reverse. The coin has been dipped for sure. I don't know what you paying, but buying this coin is never an "emergency." It is not tough to find.

 

The 1946 half dollar has been dipped, and it has some major marks. There is a long scratch in the field over "In God we trust," and Ms. Liberty has a big mark on her jaw. Once more exposure might be hiding some other marks, but those are plain to see. As such this coin grades no better than MS-62 IMO.

 

Sorry to be so negative, but it's best to learn now than to continue to make mistakes.

 

I'll follow this post with some graded coins from my collection to help you see what I mean.

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Ok. Thanks. I look forward to that follow up.

 

 

[wdrob]

If that Gold Dollar comes close to the grade you suggest then I have made a ton of money. If Genuine?

 

That 1926 Oregon I based grading on what is suggested here and the main wear points to look at are the bows on the wagon, which I compared to some 66's and they were equal or better, and like you said the ox and on the obverse you look at the wear on the Indian's thigh and the hand detail. I compared these to other coins in the realized auction results and I found them to be really close to some of the higher 65 to 66 grades as well.

 

Based on that I also entertained the idea of being dipped or cleaned however there are some other more detailed pictures I can try and upload or just give the link for. I saw numerous coins that displayed a bright luster that were graded NGC and PCGS that looked very similar in nature to this example. That led me to believe that they probably weren't knocked on the grade if they were dipped or lightly cleaned.

 

Try this link for closer views

 

I referenced an example piece on that liberty half and it must have been the same coin because it had that same mark on the jaw. I thought it was meant to be there. For whatever detail it was supposed to portray. Guess I missed that one really baly. However on the bright side I paid very little for that coin.

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

This 1853 Gold Dollar is graded MS-64, and is high end for that grade.

 

 

The 1936 Oregon Trail half dollar is graded MS-64. It is almost mark-free, but it is a little dull from a possible dip which probably downgraded it by a point. '

 

 

Unfortunately I don't have a picture of a Walking Liberty half dollar from the 1940s in Mint State. The piece in my type set is a Proof. Here is a 1917 half dollar which grades MS-64. These pieces had a different surface from the later ones, but it should give you an idea as what a nice Mint State coin should look like.

 

[wdrob]

 

Yea that 1926 Oregon Trail is perfect. Definitely one of the finer examples one might fine. The detail on the Indian thigh, head dress, and all over great detail makes me wonder why only a 64. That coin has beautiful luster. Maybe I will get lucky and my 26 will come in better than the pictures show. It has happened to me numerous times like that.

 

Also the luster is really nice on that 53 dollar. Very nice. I can see that, depending on what the coin of mine does grade for and the profit gained or monies lost, I might just have to hold out longer for the better coins. Chances are though the premium for that coin there is much, much higher than what I laid out for the one I posted and that might exclude me from that market all together.

 

 

[BillJones]

I hope that you get the gold dollar that is in that picture. Here is an 1853-D gold dollar in AU-58. Admittedly this is a Dahlonega mint coin which is a different animal, but it should give you an idea of a very choice example for the grade.

 

[wdrob]

Do you know why that Dahlonega was graded so low? There are plenty of details.

 

By the way; since I live only about 25 to 30 minutes from Dahlonega I think it is only fitting for you to send me that coin so it can be closer to it's origin.

 

Oh an that guy with the Gold Dollar I have dealt with on numerous transactions and I have always been happy with what I received and it has always seemed to be what was represented. I feel very confident that I will receive that very coin. I paid below the AU-55 for that one.

 

 

[BillJones]

That Dahlonega gold dollar has a rub in the fields which takes it down to the AU-58 level. Sharpness is not the only factor in grading coins. If the surface of the fields has a rub, it is no longer Mint State. The detail is all there, but the fields are not like what they were when the coin was struck.

 

That coin is an outstanding example that has never been cleaned or dipped. It has the original coppery surfaces. I paid MS-60 for that coin and view it as a nicer piece that many of the coins that get the low end Mint State grades.

 

[$ilverHawk]

Bill has given you some very good advice, please read what he has said carefully. Buying raw coins without having knowledge of the coins is playing with fire, you will get burned.

 

Carl

[Coindude]

Is it just me or am I the only one seeing some seriously cleaned coins here?

 

The gold dollar bends the light in the wrong way on the obverse. The reverse appears to have some severe scratches on the right hand side of the 1. The Oregon Trail is flat on the high points and shiny elsewhere. That leads me to believe that not only is the coin cleaned, but polished as well. Maybe the 46 half is overexposed. If not, then I see a coin that has been polished. And it's a shame if it was because it looks like it would have had a strong strike.

 

Are my eyes that bad?

[BillJones]

No, your eyes are not that bad, but given the overexposure on the photos it's hard to tell what has been done to the these coins. Among the three I'd say that the problems are most visible on the Oregon and the walker.

[wdrob]

 

Bill has given you some very good advice, please read what he has said carefully. Buying raw coins without having knowledge of the coins is playing with fire, you will get burned.

 

Carl

 

I didn't think that I had said or done anything to indicate otherwise. I read and appreciated all that Bill had said and will use that as part of the learning process. I would, however, like to point out that I can only be burned to the tune of return postage. I can return ANY coin that I buy that does not meet my expectations and have done so in the past where the coins were clearly mischaracterized. I am sure that collectors here, not dealers mind you, but collectors are regularly 'burned' by much greater than $6 to $8 on many more sales even in person at shows.

 

Although ebay may have it's problems one thing that I can say that I have experienced first hand is that if a seller does not offer a return policy then ebay's buyer protection kicks in. Then they will block that seller from any further sales. You would be amazed at how many sellers will simply comply without fuss to a return in order to keep from having their selling privileges revoked.

 

 

Is it just me or am I the only one seeing some seriously cleaned coins here?

 

I think I made that observation right off the bat where I mentioned that I was taking a chance that they may come in Improperly Cleaned. I don't know if you clicked on that link to the Google Photos that are uploaded. It is there that you can zoom in, quite considerably, on all the coins save the Gold Dollar. The half's, when zoomed in, show wear but they also have areas that are untouched. But as I added earlier; I could very well be returning one, two, or all of these coins. That was a chance I was willing to take for $8.00 return postage with signature.

 

 

 

[wdrob]

Well I received the coins and I am satisfied with them enough to keep them, including the gold $1, even though there are a good amount of abrasions on the outer field areas. The relief is really good. Better than I thought it would be in details.

 

Once again here is the link to get even closer views if you can't see enough from what is presented. I am not going to include in this thread all the pictures in that album. Just a few to give a better perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did not take the gold $1 out of it's plastic so basically these pictures are just further angles and maybe a better representation of the actual color and luster or no luster.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I The gold $1 is the only one that I am inclined to send back however after re reading the guys description in the listing I do not think he was trying to mislead in the slightest.

 

1851 $1 Gold U.S. Type 1 Liberty Head Rare Uncirculated Details U.S. Authentic

 

See that last part I should have understood what it implied which is that it has been graded before and came back as Authentic AU Details Improperly Cleaned. I will just let that coin age I guess and see what happens in the future.

 

Thanks for all the input by the way.

 

 

 

[BillJones]

Among the three coins the one I like the least is the Oregon Trail. Although you photos leave room for doubt about the status of the other two (personally I'd send the walker back too.) the Oregon Trail piece has all of the hallmarks of a coin worn down to EF sharpness with altered surfaces. The reason that you don't see any marks on that coin is that the marks have been polished off of it. That coin will never find its way into anything but a "details grade" or "genuine" NGC or PCGS slab.

 

I don't know what you are paying for these coins, but there no reason not buy certified coins. They are not that expensive in these grades, and you will get something that will be more worthwhile for your collection in the long run.

 

[wdrob]

Yes sir I understand exactly what you are saying and the advice is sound however it seems like anytime I go to buy anything that is already slabbed on ebay I am soon priced out.

 

Don't misunderstand me though; I have a good collection started with slabbed coins and I try to focus on only MS70 and PF70 type coins. I have one MS69 I think and it is a San Francisco First Strike ASE. I wanted the 70 but they were sold out and remained so until I gave in and bought that 69.

 

I do sometimes get lucky and am able to remain in the price range for some slabbed coins on ebay and I have bought a few 70's however chances are that I paid as much for the Oregon raw as I might have found that one slabbed. I get your point there. I really do.

 

Right now there is a 1933 D Oregon Trail Comm and it has went above 300 so I quit. Now that one only had some 5,000 + minted but I was actually relieved when that other bidder out bid me. I am done with that.

 

You may just have gotten through to me and I can always chalk this up as another learning experience. I have already left positive feed back though and committed and I keep my word so I am fine eating whatever I may have lost to maintain integrity.

 

BTw; As much as I like the Oregon Trail Comm I was bidding higher because my Indian Ancestry Wife really wanted that one. It's not going anywhere.

 

The Walking Half I paid $38.00 with Free Shipping.

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

You would be proud of me Bill. I spent some time shopping and stayed right in the Slabbed Department. I only bought slabbed coins below market with positive trending.

 

See you did get through this thick head of mine.

[BillJones]

Currently the market for the "old" (1892 to 1954) commemorative silver coins is very weak and has been that way for a number of years. If you go to coin shows, dealers are selling these coins in NGC or PCGS holders at prices that do not exceed the Gray Sheet (Coin Dealer Newsletter) price by very much if at all. You say that you were taken up to $300 for a certified 1933-D Oregon. That coin is a better date in the series which brings a premium. If you are only looking for a representative type coin the Gray Sheet prices are $165 in MS-64 and $250 or so for MS-65.

 

While I don't advocate paying huge premiums for "monster" coins in grades like MS-67 and above, I see no reason not to buy nice coins in strong collector grades like MS-64 and 65. For some commemorative coins it makes sense to buy MS-66 graded piece (e.g. Norfolk, York) because the added cost for the higher grade is not that much. Buying a coin, especially a common coin that is often available is never an emergency. It is better to have fewer really nice coins than large numbers of mediocre to problem coins.

 

[wdrob]

Yeah I bailed at $300.00 on that one once someone bid $305.00 .... I have noticed what you said to be true that it seems like a weak market for half dollar comm and I was buying those more for sentimental than collector reasons.

 

What I look for in the PF70 DCAM and MS70 slabs mostly are the collection of ASE's that I am collecting. However the price rises so much after a certain point that I don't think I will ever have a complete set of 70's on them. I have been focusing on S$1 comm a good bit now. I can find them in the slabs at 70 right around the grey sheet value or slightly less.

 

I have a good bit of ungraded silver dollar comm's in the OGP as well. As far as raw coins go I have bought quite a few Morgans but have only sent one in for grading yet. That was the 1883 CC and I believe that will come back at a decent grade and PL. It's mirrors are nice. I guess I will know some time during next week. I sent it in express service. I am going to quit sending everything to PCGS also and start sending my stuff to NGC. They are in Florida which is much closer to me than California. That should allow for slightly shorter turn around times.

 

 

[wdrob]

You say that you were taken up to $300 for a certified 1933-D Oregon. That coin is a a better date in the series which brings a premium. If you are only looking for a representative type coin the Gray Sheet prices are $165 in MS-64 and $250 or so for MS-65.

 

Like I said I bailed at $300 but it sold for $390.00 which was way higher than I would have went. Probably someone that needed that one to complete a series or something.

[wdrob]

Here is a good example of a reference ......................

[coinman_23885]

There is one key issue or difference here that is very important, and unfortunately, there is no way around it. Internet images are often poor reflections of what a coin will look like in hand. When comparing the coins, you must consider the photography techniques including lighting, etc, that were used. It is difficult to meaningfully compare your coin to the David Lawrence image if you are not familiar with principles of numismatic photography. These take much time to learn.

 

Here is an exercise that you might want to consider: Take the 1946 Walker between your thumb and forefinger, and rotate it three or four times in your hand slowly and continuously in circles. Please tell us exactly what you see. I promise there is a reason why I am suggesting that you do this.

 

Unfortunately, I am not very good with photography myself or I could take some illustrative shots using some coins that I have.

[wdrob]

Take the 1946 Walker between your thumb and forefinger, and rotate it three or four times in your hand slowly and continuously in circles. P

[wdrob]

 

Here is an exercise that you might want to consider: Take the 1946 Walker between your thumb and forefinger, and rotate it three or four times in your hand slowly and continuously in circles. Please tell us exactly what you see. I promise there is a reason why I am suggesting that you do this.

 

 

 

[wdrob]

Here is an exercise that you might want to consider: Take the 1946 Walker between your thumb and forefinger, and rotate it three or four times in your hand slowly and continuously in circles. Please tell us exactly what you see.

 

[wdrob]

 

Well I never got an answer about that 1946 Walker that I should have sent back. I rotated it in circular motion like you said and I got luster cartwheel like. I don't think it is that bad of a coin since I only paid $38.00 for it. That mark on the jaw is actually not even in the primary focal area. I don't think it would effect the grade that much.

 

 

 

[wdrob]

I hope that you will take this advice in the spirit that it is given ...

 

The piece you have purchased has the general look a Mint State coin, and it appears to be genuine. Having said that I see a lot of small marks that might lead me to believe that will grade somewhere in the MS-62 or 63 range.

 

This coin I kept and never sent in for grading. My daughter thought it was "cute" so I just gave it to here and she keeps it in here safe along with all her other stuff that I have given her. As much as I would like to sneak in there and submit it ... I guess it will just have to remain a "cute" coin.

 

 

The photos of this coin is over exposed so it is hard to grade it. My educated guess is that it falls somewhere in the AU-55 to MS-63 range although the overexposure could be hiding some cleaning and some wear. There might be some flat wear spots on the Indian's thighs the oxen and figures on the reverse. The coin has been dipped for sure. I don't know what you paying, but buying this coin is never an "emergency." It is not tough to find.

 

I agree and after looking at it for a while I could actually see a little wear on the Indians thigh so that one was not quite as good as I had thought it might be. I put it in an envelope and maybe many years from now it will be a toned comm half.

 

The 1946 half dollar has been dipped, and it has some major marks. There is a long scratch in the field over "In God we trust," and Ms. Liberty has a big mark on her jaw. Once more exposure might be hiding some other marks, but those are plain to see. As such this coin grades no better than MS-62 IMO.

 

Now the walking half I did send in. I did as coinman_23885 suggested and never heard any response from him. I sent it in to NGC and it is now in a NGC holder at MS65. I guess coinman_23885 wanted me to see cartwheel effects and since I did I went ahead and submitted. Glad I did. That one almost brought me back to even on those. If I had sent in that 1851 Gold Dollar I might have broke even. Not sure. It is a bit scratched up like Coindude had mentioned.

 

Sorry to be so negative, but it's best to learn now than to continue to make mistakes.

 

I learn allot from you. You weren't negative at all in my perception. Just offering constructive criticism which I will learn a great deal in the long run.

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

 

I finally sneaked in there, well I really asked her if I could, and I sent that 1851 Gold Type 1 Dollar in for grading. I chose the cheaper service and it was a good day. It came back as AU58 so I did not lose money in the end on that one or on the Walker that came back a MS65.

 

The only one I didn't send in was the 26S Oregon Comm. I think I sold it here just recently and I guess in the end I broke even on a lesson learned and was very fortunate.