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1801 Bust Dollar variety

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I was just looking at a dealer's Bust dollar. He searched it, said it was an R-5 a Bolender 4a. The coin has nice overall look, minimal wear, good luster. He graded it a VF 35 or thereabouts but said it may XF due to the weak strike of many of these coins. It has a star shaped mark under the left wing made by a collector. Any chance this coin would grade numerically, or would they have to net grade it due to a mark they call graffiti usually?

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You really need to post a picture if you want an answer concerning whether or not it will grade. From what you say it sounds like the piece will not get a grade unless the graders miss it. I saw a PCGS graded Bust dollar with light initials in the obverse field that was graded. I don't know if the graders missed it or net graded it, but it should not have happened.

 

As for "Bolender 4a" the Bowers number for this piece BB-214, and it is not that rare. I'm guess that the "a" stands for a die state, which is usually not a reason to charge a high premium for a Bust dollar variety. It might mean something for a cent or half cent, but I don't think that the comparatively small number of Bust dollar variety collectors there are have gotten into die states to that extent. Overall Bowers estimates that there are 400 to 750 (URS - 10) BB-214s known, and 210 to 400 (URS - 9) in the VF-20 to EF-45 grade range.

 

The 1801 dollar is a better date, but the premiums usually come in at the higher grades.

 

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If the scratch is clear, I doubt anyone will certify its grade.

 

Bill's comments are on the nose.

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My guess it is not a winner at $3500; he said he would refund 100% if unsatisfied. I would say high end VF with the one problem indicated, the "star" made up of three small scratch marks under the left wing, an X with additional line in the middle. This dealer hardly ever submits coins, grades his own. Probably I made the mistake of telling him how some of the raw coins I bought from him graded, sometimes a little higher than he had figured; now he is overgrading coins IMO.

 

He said the grading services often overlook minor problem like this in such old pieces. In my experience they may make allowances for minor cleaning issues, but not marks that amount to physical damage.

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I have seen quite a few coins (particularly older and/or more worn ones) with marks/damage which I thought would preclude other than a details grade, receive grades. But without an image, there is no way to answer your question. And even with one, it might not help.

 

It sounds like your question concerns (1801) Bust Dollar damage, not 1801 Bust Dollar variety. ;)

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The 1801 B-4 was listed as an R-5 when Bolender wrote his book in 1950, As Bill indicated on the same scale today it would be considered to be an R-3- to R-2+. That's a problem sometimes, people quote rarities out of old books when they are selling. I see a lot of Large cents up for sale with rarity listings from the 1958 Penny Whimsy that have dropped two levels or more since then.

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Thanks for the expert analysis on this coin. Many of these raw coin dealers live in their own world and leave collectors and other dealers without sharp savvy in the lurch when they get left holding the bag. This guy has never told me what his buy/sell spreads are which will usually indicate reasonable business standards instead of arbitrary pricing ultimately based on their own prerogatives over an external objective grading and pricing standard.

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The 1801 B-4 was listed as an R-5 when Bolender wrote his book in 1950, As Bill indicated on the same scale today it would be considered to be an R-3- to R-2+. That's a problem sometimes, people quote rarities out of old books when they are selling. I see a lot of Large cents up for sale with rarity listings from the 1958 Penny Whimsy that have dropped two levels or more since then.

 

Any rarity estimate that was formulated pre-internet will be inaccurate. Still, I wouldn't mind being the first kid on my block with an 1801..................GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

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I'll gladly give you his phone number, jimbo, on request. But he does not ship coins, but if you overnight the equivalent in cash with a generous shipping premium, he may be convinced. And he does not except for once in a blue moon send coins in for grading as he is convinced that the grading services "switch" coins on submitters.

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