Toned ASE

[mumu]

Ialmost bid -- in my opinion, 100% NT from a PCI holder.

 

I just love these AT vs NT debates. It's like discussing religion, when all is said and done you are left with your belief. No facts, just belief.

 

Carl

 

I like how its never someone's own series of interest that has the AT'ing problem. It's always some other series they dont collect.

[mumu]

It's not my prized possession BTW

[bochiman]

Looks like PCI Toning to me. Not sure I understand the comments about it being too perfect.

 

That's what some of us said..."initially, it looks like PCI toning".

The "too perfect" comes from having seen many PCI toned SAEs, in person, and owning a few and knowing what is out there and what to expect.

 

 

I have owned dozens of the PCI rainbow toned ASE's. There is nothing about this coin that would make me suspicious that it is not a PCI ASE. To think that someone perfected a method to recreate exactly the PCI toning color scheme while making the bands just a little bit thinner and more concentric is, well, ludicrous.

 

No problem. Believe what you will but accept the fact that I will believe what I will from experience as well

 

As I said before, if the buyer was happy with the coin and the price, then it is no harm no foul for them either way.

 

I'm not hear to try to beat down anyway to saying it is AT, but I have not seen anything that would lend me to accept NT either....and I have experience with PCI toned ASEs as well

 

 

Side note: I just love when people get all worked up on one side of an argument or another. I have no personal interest in this either way, nor do I with most things posted on these boards, so I don't worry about letting my pride or ego get in the way

[lehigh96]

Looks like PCI Toning to me. Not sure I understand the comments about it being too perfect.

 

That's what some of us said..."initially, it looks like PCI toning".

The "too perfect" comes from having seen many PCI toned SAEs, in person, and owning a few and knowing what is out there and what to expect.

 

 

I have owned dozens of the PCI rainbow toned ASE's. There is nothing about this coin that would make me suspicious that it is not a PCI ASE. To think that someone perfected a method to recreate exactly the PCI toning color scheme while making the bands just a little bit thinner and more concentric is, well, ludicrous.

 

No problem. Believe what you will but accept the fact that I will believe what I will from experience as well

 

As I said before, if the buyer was happy with the coin and the price, then it is no harm no foul for them either way.

 

I'm not hear to try to beat down anyway to saying it is AT, but I have not seen anything that would lend me to accept NT either....and I have experience with PCI toned ASEs as well

 

 

Side note: I just love when people get all worked up on one side of an argument or another. I have no personal interest in this either way, nor do I with most things posted on these boards, so I don't worry about letting my pride or ego get in the way

 

OK, thats cool.

 

I just think everyone is over thinking this one. If the first impression is that the coin is a PCI toned ASE, that is probably correct, despite what NGC thinks.

[bochiman]

btw...I would have answered the same regardless of the holder (or no-holder).

I have seen plenty of what I would consider NT that didn't get holdered, so I don't go by what the holder says when I make my own opinion on something I believe I have some knowledge about

[physics-fan3.14]

btw...I would have answered the same regardless of the holder (or no-holder).

I have seen plenty of what I would consider NT that didn't get holdered, so I don't go by what the holder says when I make my own opinion on something I believe I have some knowledge about

 

Exactly - which is why I bought this one. I would never (knowingly) buy a coin that I thought was AT (some people like them, I don't). I am firmly convinced that this is natural, despite whatever clothes it might be wearing.

[$ilverHawk]

Ialmost bid -- in my opinion, 100% NT from a PCI holder.

 

I just love these AT vs NT debates. It's like discussing religion, when all is said and done you are left with your belief. No facts, just belief.

 

Carl

 

Isn't it pretty much that way with most aspects of numismatics? These things are based on evidence and informed guesses/hypotheses, especially since many of the coins were made before our own great grandparents, etc., at a time where there are no living witnesses to the coin's history. I know Silver Eagles are a little different, but even as such, there is no person who can trace a coin's life events with 100% accuracy. The best we can do is infer based on evidence, past occurrences/trends, etc.

 

I agree, and note how much the AT vs NT debate has moved to "market acceptable". For example, the toning effect seen on the OP s ASE is described as toning typically found on ASE s in PCI holders. After reading various posts, it seems that PCI toning is perfectly "market acceptable" to many in this thread. No facts, just a belief that PCI toning is not AT.

 

There I go again---discussing religion.

 

Carl

[newprepper]

I thought you were discussing politics

[TonerGuy]

Exactly - which is why I bought this one. I would never (knowingly) buy a coin that I thought was AT (some people like them, I don't). I am firmly convinced that this is natural, despite whatever clothes it might be wearing.

 

Welcome to the last (most advanced?) group of toned coin collectors - those that dont care what a TPG says. Enjoy your stay and you dont have to worry about NT, AT or MA. All that matters is that you are convinced you like the coin.

 

 

[$ilverHawk]

I thought you were discussing politics

 

You thought it wrong.

 

Carl

[kryptonitecomics]

Ialmost bid -- in my opinion, 100% NT from a PCI holder.

 

I just love these AT vs NT debates. It's like discussing religion, when all is said and done you are left with your belief. No facts, just belief.

 

Carl

 

Isn't it pretty much that way with most aspects of numismatics? These things are based on evidence and informed guesses/hypotheses, especially since many of the coins were made before our own great grandparents, etc., at a time where there are no living witnesses to the coin's history. I know Silver Eagles are a little different, but even as such, there is no person who can trace a coin's life events with 100% accuracy. The best we can do is infer based on evidence, past occurrences/trends, etc.

 

I agree, and note how much the AT vs NT debate has moved to "market acceptable". For example, the toning effect seen on the OP s ASE is described as toning typically found on ASE s in PCI holders. After reading various posts, it seems that PCI toning is perfectly "market acceptable" to many in this thread. No facts, just a belief that PCI toning is not AT.

 

There I go again---discussing religion.

 

Carl

 

 

I think they kinda have to think that way Carl because if not then we have to call all of the rim toned Morgans in Old NGC no line fatty holders AT as well as Redfield Morgans and Tidy House coins....all toned due to long term storage in some sort of holder whether it be plastic or cardboard...and then their are the rainbow bullseye toned 1970-S Lincolns and the 1960's Proof Nickels....and on and on....

[morganguru]

I have ASE's in PCI holders with almost the identical toning rings. Was this in a PCI holder at some point? Nice ASE imo.

 

ASE's tone, some wildly some not. Some have the rings around the edge, not all though. A couple of examples.

 

[jpcienkus]

For us newbies, what's a PCI holder? Is it just a holder anyone can acquire to "slab" their coins?

[coinman_23885]

I have ASE's in PCI holders with almost the identical toning rings. Was this in a PCI holder at some point? Nice ASE imo.

 

ASE's tone, some wildly some not. Some have the rings around the edge, not all though. A couple of examples.

 

Interestingly, I had a 1999 Silver American Eagle toned with the exact same pattern, colors, and color progression. I purchased it in a PCGS holder, and it was my understanding that the previous owner (who had submitted it to PCGS) had cracked it directly from an old PCI holder. In short, this (if true and I have no reason to doubt that it is based on my other observation/personal experience) illustrates that PCI can create toning that is quite predictable.

[newprepper]

For us newbies, what's a PCI holder? Is it just a holder anyone can acquire to "slab" their coins?

 

Another grading company, search ebay for it

[Kurtdog]

Ialmost bid -- in my opinion, 100% NT from a PCI holder.

I just love these AT vs NT debates. It's like discussing religion, when all is said and done you are left with your belief. No facts, just belief.

 

Carl

Isn't it pretty much that way with most aspects of numismatics?

I hear that a lot in defense of these nonsensical grading criteria. Keep swinging. They're just rationalizations. Grading is subjective to the degree of the weights assigned to the various grading criteria. Heavy contact marks vs. killer luster, for example. There's where the subjectivity comes in. The grading criteria, themselves, the marks and luster, are objective criteria. We can all agree they're there when we see them. NT and AT, those are arbitrary criteria. No wonder the dealers, TPGS and "experts" love them. They're money on a hoof.

[coinman_23885]

Ialmost bid -- in my opinion, 100% NT from a PCI holder.

I just love these AT vs NT debates. It's like discussing religion, when all is said and done you are left with your belief. No facts, just belief.

 

Carl

Isn't it pretty much that way with most aspects of numismatics?

I hear that a lot in defense of these nonsensical grading criteria. Keep swinging. They're just rationalizations. Grading is subjective to the degree of the weights assigned to the various grading criteria. Heavy contact marks vs. killer luster, for example. There's where the subjectivity comes in. The grading criteria, themselves, the marks and luster, are objective criteria. We can all agree they're there when we see them. NT and AT, those are arbitrary criteria. No wonder the dealers, TPGS and "experts" love them. They're money on a hoof.

 

I think everyone here would agree with you that grading is subjective, and similarly the artificial v. natural v. market acceptable v. questionable toning determination is also subjective. With this said, just because something is subjective doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't useful. Given the nature of the human senses and psychology, arguably anything can be subjective. There are also degrees of subjectivity. For instance, I think we can all agree that coins with the petroleum "oil slick" look are likely AT, and in many cases, we call all agree that some coins are almost universally considered ugly or attractive despite the fact that there is subjectivity in what constitutes "good" eye appeal.

 

P.S. I haven't seen you post a lot here recently; I hope you are doing well.

[coinsarefun]

For us newbies, what's a PCI holder? Is it just a holder anyone can acquire to "slab" their coins?

 

 

 

Just a few, but these are PCI holders(slabs)

 

 

 

 

 

btw, the 1999 now resides in a PCGS slab

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mumu]

Do NGC and PCGS consider it MA when a PCI is sent over with a 100% white label and its toned up?

[jom]

Do NGC and PCGS consider it MA when a PCI is sent over with a 100% white label and its toned up?

 

The coin would not be "sent over" in a PCI slab as far as I know. Unless the coin is in the crossover service it has to be cracked out before submission and since I don't believe PCGS will cross any PCI coins then...

 

PCGS would have to have experts who KNOW what a PCI toned coin looks like...I would imagine.

 

jom

[coinsarefun]

Do NGC and PCGS consider it MA when a PCI is sent over with a 100% white label and its toned up?

 

 

 

 

 

I would say it is their discretion as ASE's are not the only coin that is in PCI holders.

I have submitted Kennedy's, Franklins, Morgans among other coins, some slab some do not.

 

For the most part I have cracked and then submitted what I thought would be graded and so far

only one coin(Kennedy) did not slab. Other coins I still have in the PCI holders.

 

 

 

[coinsarefun]

Do NGC and PCGS consider it MA when a PCI is sent over with a 100% white label and its toned up?

 

The coin would not be "sent over" in a PCI slab as far as I know. Unless the coin is in the crossover service it has to be cracked out before submission and since I don't believe PCGS will cross any PCI coins then...

 

PCGS would have to have experts who KNOW what a PCI toned coin looks like...I would imagine.

 

jom

 

 

 

This is basically correct except they absolutely know what PCI slab toning is. Also, I have brought several PCI slabbed coins to the Las Vegas show and have shown several coins to Don, after discussion he takes it in the back and has them crack it for me and I submit for regular grading.

The coins slabbed. I have never submitted in the PCI slab.

 

 

[jpcienkus]

 

Just a few, but these are PCI holders(slabs)

btw, the 1999 now resides in a PCGS slab

 

 

 

Thank you!

[bochiman]

Do NGC and PCGS consider it MA when a PCI is sent over with a 100% white label and its toned up?

 

I have used the PCI crossover service on "100% white", but really target toned, PCI SAEs and they have crossed with no problem. Others have as well.

 

I can't answer for NGC since I have not attempted that.

[Kurtdog]

Ialmost bid -- in my opinion, 100% NT from a PCI holder.

I just love these AT vs NT debates. It's like discussing religion, when all is said and done you are left with your belief. No facts, just belief.

 

Carl

Isn't it pretty much that way with most aspects of numismatics?

 

... Grading is subjective to the degree of the weights assigned to the various grading criteria. Heavy contact marks vs. killer luster, for example. There's where the subjectivity comes in. The grading criteria, themselves, the marks and luster, are objective criteria.

I think everyone here would agree with you that grading is subjective, and similarly the artificial v. natural v. market acceptable v. questionable toning determination is also subjective. With this said, just because something is subjective doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't useful. Given the nature of the human senses and psychology, arguably anything can be subjective. There are also degrees of subjectivity. For instance, I think we can all agree that coins with the petroleum "oil slick" look are likely AT, and in many cases, we call all agree that some coins are almost universally considered ugly or attractive despite the fact that there is subjectivity in what constitutes "good" eye appeal.

 

P.S. I haven't seen you post a lot here recently; I hope you are doing well.

Kenny, quick PM sent.

 

For the thread, my whole thing is NT and AT, and you can throw in QT, are arbitrary and capricious grading criteria. That's different from subjective. The subjectivity in grading figures in at the stage when we as graders are put to the challenge of assigning weights or relative values to what rather are strictly definable, objective grading criteria. Taking my example, which was relative to the grading of MS coins, contact marks and luster are strictly definable, objective grading criteria. They're either there on the coin or they're not, and said presence or absence as well as the degree of same can be objectively measured. Now, weigh them against one another, and assign the coin a grade. That's where the emotional or subjective component comes in. NT, AT, and, for that matter, QT, they're not only arbitrary and capricious, they don't even exist, save in the imaginations of some seriously mixed-up and delusional collectors. In my honest opinion.

[physics-fan3.14]

Got the coin in hand yesterday, and after close examination I am even more convinced it is NT. The colors are a part of the surface, have the correct progression, smooth transitions, and are vibrant and genuine. Even moreso, I snapped these quick pictures which show how the toning behaves around the lettering - this behavior is only possible with gas flow deposition (the process by which natural toning occurs, rather than some substance being applied to the coin). While not a 100% indicator of natural toning, it is a very strong indication that this is natural.

[RWB]

Why not simply buy a piece of diffraction grating and look at the pretty colors? Buying a silver ounce to do the same thing seems a bit perverse.

[newprepper]

I guess the same reason people buy old copper instead of dirt? haha

[TonerGuy]

Well if it makes you feel any better I talked to NGC yesterday and as a policy they will not grade toned ASEs as they feel they just arent MA. So your coin got AT'd probably as a matter of policy as opposed to a real review...

 

PCGS will grade toned ASEs so send it into them if you want a TPGs opinion.

[jom]

Got the coin in hand yesterday, and after close examination I am even more convinced it is NT. The colors are a part of the surface, have the correct progression, smooth transitions, and are vibrant and genuine. Even moreso, I snapped these quick pictures which show how the toning behaves around the lettering - this behavior is only possible with gas flow deposition (the process by which natural toning occurs, rather than some substance being applied to the coin). While not a 100% indicator of natural toning, it is a very strong indication that this is natural.

 

I don't see that has holding to the idea of "Elevation Chromatics" or whatever they call it. What are you thoughts?

 

jom