CAC / NGC / PCGS and the + Designation

[brg5658]

Seems a little misleading to look at a slab that says MS66+ CAC and the CAC endorsement means nothing to the + designation. I'm certain that many coins are being bought under the impression that CAC is endorsing the + designation.

 

I don't understand why many are mislead by this; the service has always advertised itself as separating the "A" and "B" quality coins from the low end "C" quality coins (a close paraphrase from John Albanese, the CAC website, and several of their advertisements), with the solid and high end coins receiving a green sticker. I have never seen a "B" quality coin that I would award a plus designation and except for a few errors, I cannot imagine that a grading service would either. If CAC were to start verifying verifying the plus designation, then it would seemingly need to separate between "A" and "B" quality coins for those that are already at the top of the grade (i.e. to be awarded the designation). How can one distinguish between a 64.9 and a 64.95 or even a 64.8 with consistency? Grading is subjective and this is inherent in the nature of the activity itself. Also, your interpretation would create a lot of ambiguity. For instance, does a 66+ that doesn't sticker, under your interpretation, mean that it is not a 66+ or that it is not a 66? There is a huge difference between the two. In order to implement your desired interpretation, they would need to add new colors to the sticker pallet. One can only slice the salami but so thinly before the distinctions become meaningless and superficial.

 

I think that train already left the station.

[mikew148]

How can one distinguish between a 64.9 and a 64.95 or even a 64.8 with consistency?

 

That's why I brought PCGS into this. Their price guide says this coin is valued at $475 in MS66 and $650 for a 66+. Aren't they distinguishing between the intervals you've listed here?

 

If it's unreasonable to think CAC could distinguish between A and B coins with any degree of consistency how can they distinguish between B and C coins? If they can't - are there a lot of C coins with CAC stickers?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[michael]

(1) CAC ignores the plus designation; their verification only confirms that it is either solid or premium quality for the grade (MS66);

 

---100% CORRECT ALSO FROM MY EXPERIENCES I HAVE SEEN some plus coin pcgs not get the green bean when submitted why?/ could be a low ened for the grade coin and/or problems with the coin that cac finalizers saw in their evaulation of the coin based on their opinionsd and standards REMEMBER EVERYTHING IS AN OPINION THERE ARE NO SET STANDARDS for coin grading it is all SUBJECTIVE

 

 

--------also i have seen coins with the + and green bean i personally did not agree with either

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(2) I would estimate the coin's value to be approximately $300-$450 (est.);

 

--- ----------without seeing the coin in hand sight seen i cant give you my opinion of current market value but 300-450 is a fair informed estimate:)

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(3) The plus designation is relatively new; thus, there may not exist sufficient auction records and pricing histories to permit them to determine a value for their price guide.

 

---------- well written and i agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! also every same graded plus coin same date mintmarket combo same coin you can even rank them as whixh is the nicest of the bunch and so downward you would pick if given a choice of one choice the best one coin of a group of same grqaded and date mintmark combo of same holdered coins coins and many would choose differently

[mumu]

The + is pretty much the same idea as the CAC sticker in that it gives the coin a status in the upper echelon of the technical grade. So CAC ignoring them makes sense. Especially since the criteria for the sticker is broader than that of the +. If I recall correctly the + is given to coins in the upper 10% whereas the sticker is the upper 50%?

[Nutmeg Coin]

In hundreds of coin submissions I can't remember one plus grade; with CAC I have averaged a third or better. It is subjective; I have had a former NGC grader look over CAC rejects, PCGS coins, and he did not see any reason for the issue. They may see something they like or don't like with their systematic analysis. Some day a book or blog will be written by an insider there and at the grading services, though confidentiality requirements may discourage that.

[MarkFeld]

The + is pretty much the same idea as the CAC sticker in that it gives the coin a status in the upper echelon of the technical grade. So CAC ignoring them makes sense. Especially since the criteria for the sticker is broader than that of the +. If I recall correctly the + is given to coins in the upper 10% whereas the sticker is the upper 50%?

 

You do not recall correctly.

[mumu]

The + is pretty much the same idea as the CAC sticker in that it gives the coin a status in the upper echelon of the technical grade. So CAC ignoring them makes sense. Especially since the criteria for the sticker is broader than that of the +. If I recall correctly the + is given to coins in the upper 10% whereas the sticker is the upper 50%?

 

You do not recall correctly.

 

So what ARE the parameters. I know CAC uses A B and C rather than a % number, but I highly doubt "solid for the the grade" interprets as merely better than the lower 33%. I would interpret solid for the grade is anything above the 50% mean, therefore leaving C coins as 0-50% B coins 51-75% and A coins as 76-100% for the grade. In either case the point is the CAC sticker covers more ground than the + designation which I am pretty sure is set at either 10% or 20%, dont remember which of the 2.

[mumu]

OK Mark since you are going to lawyer up on me I'll cover some more angles and add that I think Hall or Willis stated that they "estimate" only 10% of coins in any grade would achieve + status. And yes I realize thats ATS and not NGC but without anything else to go by and seeing approximately similar distributions of the + designation, I feel it is fairly benign to use that figure as a loose guideline for making my point, which was again simply that the sticker covers more ground than the +.

[coinman_23885]

How can one distinguish between a 64.9 and a 64.95 or even a 64.8 with consistency?

 

That's why I brought PCGS into this. Their price guide says this coin is valued at $475 in MS66 and $650 for a 66+. Aren't they distinguishing between the intervals you've listed here?

 

If it's unreasonable to think CAC could distinguish between A and B coins with any degree of consistency how can they distinguish between B and C coins? If they can't - are there a lot of C coins with CAC stickers?

 

My point was that by looking at the plus designation, they are making more and more distinctions. The more distinctions that are made, the differences between intervals become smaller and begin to blur to the point that the distinctions ultimately become superficial. You're also adding more variation and subjectivity. I think one can reasonably distinguish between those coins that are solid for the grade or premium quality, and those that are not.

 

No one has still addressed my concern over the ambiguity that would exist when stickering (or denying a sticker) to plus graded coins. Again, consider this, if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this? Is this to say that the coin is not a solid 66+ or that it is not a 66? For instance, would a solid 66 in a 66+ sticker be denied a sticker because although it was solid for the grade of MS66, it was not quite good enough for a 66+?

[MarkFeld]

How can one distinguish between a 64.9 and a 64.95 or even a 64.8 with consistency?

 

That's why I brought PCGS into this. Their price guide says this coin is valued at $475 in MS66 and $650 for a 66+. Aren't they distinguishing between the intervals you've listed here?

 

If it's unreasonable to think CAC could distinguish between A and B coins with any degree of consistency how can they distinguish between B and C coins? If they can't - are there a lot of C coins with CAC stickers?

 

My point was that by looking at the plus designation, they are making more and more distinctions. The more distinctions that are made, the differences between intervals become smaller and begin to blur to the point that the distinctions ultimately become superficial. You're also adding more variation and subjectivity. I think one can reasonably distinguish between those coins that are solid for the grade or premium quality, and those that are not.

 

No one has still addressed my concern over the ambiguity that would exist when stickering (or denying a sticker) to plus graded coins. Again, consider this, if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this? Is this to say that the coin is not a solid 66+ or that it is not a 66? For instance, would a solid 66 in a 66+ sticker be denied a sticker because although it was solid for the grade of MS66, it was not quite good enough for a 66+?

 

I don't see the ambiguity that you expressed concern over/asked about. But before I explain why, you must have written something other than what you intended when you wrote "Again, consider this, if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this?" if the coin is a CAC graded...., then it DID sticker.

 

Now, in answer to your question - when assessing coins, CAC ignores the plus part of a plus grade. So, if CAC is viewing a "solid 66" coin in a 66+ holder, they ignore the plus and then determine whether the coin is an "A", "B" or "C" quality 66 coin. If either of the first two, the coin will sticker and if not, the coin won't sticker. In other words, a plus grade coin is assessed for purposes of a sticker or rejection, just as a non plus coin is.

[mikew148]

if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this? Is this to say that the coin is not a solid 66+ or that it is not a 66? For instance, would a solid 66 in a 66+ sticker be denied a sticker because although it was solid for the grade of MS66, it was not quite good enough for a 66+?

 

That could make for a slab full of designations and stickers!

 

One sticker to evaluate the number grade, one to evaluate the plus........ how about the star?

 

Green sticker for grade evaluation, blue sticker for + or *, and then of course if they thought the plus should have been a star you get a green bean for grade and a gold bean for the the plus! How about a half green, half gold bean! What about the coins that have a + and a *........I'm getting nauseous

[FishyOne]

....No one has still addressed my concern over the ambiguity that would exist when stickering (or denying a sticker) to plus graded coins. Again, consider this, if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this? Is this to say that the coin is not a solid 66+ or that it is not a 66? For instance, would a solid 66 in a 66+ sticker be denied a sticker because although it was solid for the grade of MS66, it was not quite good enough for a 66+?

 

I submitted an NGC MS65+ Morgan to CAC a couple years ago. It looked like a very nice, problem-free 65. Not a solid 66 by any means but clearly a strong 65 deserving of the 65+ grade designation IMHO.

 

I was stunned when it did not sticker. I did not call JA but couldn't believe this was not a solid for the grade 65 deserving a green bean. Upon reflection I thought okay, maybe it's a not a 65+ to CAC, but wait, CAC doesn't take the + into account. What gives?

 

Still a head shaker but either CAC saw a problem (not likely) or didn't want to sticker it BECAUSE it had the +. The + designation itself MIGHT not be stickered as a +, but a + graded coin might NOT be stickered because of the +!

 

I might be over thinking this but it makes some sense. CAC might not WANT to sticker + coins unless they feel they deserve the +. Whether or not they are validating the + is another matter entirely because clearly they say they are not.

 

Just food for thought for us OCD collectors and slab/bean lovers! That be me!

 

 

[michael]

remember A B C A high end for the grade B soild for the grade C low end for the grade

 

if IF THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS WITH THE COIN

 

so if you send in a 65+ graded coin pcgs/ngc to cac and it does not sticker (barring no other problems with the coin cac looks at the coin graded 65 and sayz is it A B C?? they thought C low end for the grade

 

their opinion you asked for it you got it if you cant take their opinion trust yourself and dont send anything in i wish everyone for a green bean THAT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

 

IF YOU WANT A MS65+ NGC GRADED COIN and you want it CAC STICKERED EITHER BUY IT CAC STICKERED OR ASK THE SELLER TO SEND IT IN FOR YOU as you will only buy it stickered cac

 

[FishyOne]

remember A B C A high end for the grade B soild for the grade C low end for the grade

 

if IF THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS WITH THE COIN

 

so if you send in a 65+ graded coin pcgs/ngc to cac and it does not sticker (barring no other problems with the coin cac looks at the coin graded 65 and sayz is it A B C?? they thought C low end for the grade

 

their opinion you asked for it you got it if you cant take their opinion trust yourself and dont send anything in i wish everyone for a green bean THAT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

 

IF YOU WANT A MS65+ NGC GRADED COIN and you want it CAC STICKERED EITHER BUY IT CAC STICKERED OR ASK THE SELLER TO SEND IT IN FOR YOU as you will only buy it stickered cac

 

 

Yes, I understand where you're coming from. Thing is NGC thought "A" and CAC thought "C"? Assuming no problems of course, that's quite odd. Especially when the coin looked like a very solid 65.

 

My comment was related to CAC perhaps not WANTING to bean it BECAUSE it had the +. Again, I'm likely over-thinking it.

[coinman_23885]

....No one has still addressed my concern over the ambiguity that would exist when stickering (or denying a sticker) to plus graded coins. Again, consider this, if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this? Is this to say that the coin is not a solid 66+ or that it is not a 66? For instance, would a solid 66 in a 66+ sticker be denied a sticker because although it was solid for the grade of MS66, it was not quite good enough for a 66+?

 

I submitted an NGC MS65+ Morgan to CAC a couple years ago. It looked like a very nice, problem-free 65. Not a solid 66 by any means but clearly a strong 65 deserving of the 65+ grade designation IMHO.

 

I was stunned when it did not sticker. I did not call JA but couldn't believe this was not a solid for the grade 65 deserving a green bean. Upon reflection I thought okay, maybe it's a not a 65+ to CAC, but wait, CAC doesn't take the + into account. What gives?

 

Still a head shaker but either CAC saw a problem (not likely) or didn't want to sticker it BECAUSE it had the +. The + designation itself MIGHT not be stickered as a +, but a + graded coin might NOT be stickered because of the +!

 

I might be over thinking this but it makes some sense. CAC might not WANT to sticker + coins unless they feel they deserve the +. Whether or not they are validating the + is another matter entirely because clearly they say they are not.

 

Just food for thought for us OCD collectors and slab/bean lovers! That be me!

 

 

John and the other CAC graders have certain peeves. Among them are coins with rim dings. Did yours have a rim ding, even if minor? I have never seen a coin with a rim ding sticker. How about the toning? Was it heavily toned? If so, this appears to be another peeve (darker toning even if attractive).

 

[coinman_23885]

How can one distinguish between a 64.9 and a 64.95 or even a 64.8 with consistency?

 

That's why I brought PCGS into this. Their price guide says this coin is valued at $475 in MS66 and $650 for a 66+. Aren't they distinguishing between the intervals you've listed here?

 

If it's unreasonable to think CAC could distinguish between A and B coins with any degree of consistency how can they distinguish between B and C coins? If they can't - are there a lot of C coins with CAC stickers?

 

My point was that by looking at the plus designation, they are making more and more distinctions. The more distinctions that are made, the differences between intervals become smaller and begin to blur to the point that the distinctions ultimately become superficial. You're also adding more variation and subjectivity. I think one can reasonably distinguish between those coins that are solid for the grade or premium quality, and those that are not.

 

No one has still addressed my concern over the ambiguity that would exist when stickering (or denying a sticker) to plus graded coins. Again, consider this, if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this? Is this to say that the coin is not a solid 66+ or that it is not a 66? For instance, would a solid 66 in a 66+ sticker be denied a sticker because although it was solid for the grade of MS66, it was not quite good enough for a 66+?

 

I don't see the ambiguity that you expressed concern over/asked about. But before I explain why, you must have written something other than what you intended when you wrote "Again, consider this, if a CAC graded MS66+, for instance, did not sticker, how would we interpret this?" if the coin is a CAC graded...., then it DID sticker.

 

Now, in answer to your question - when assessing coins, CAC ignores the plus part of a plus grade. So, if CAC is viewing a "solid 66" coin in a 66+ holder, they ignore the plus and then determine whether the coin is an "A", "B" or "C" quality 66 coin. If either of the first two, the coin will sticker and if not, the coin won't sticker. In other words, a plus grade coin is assessed for purposes of a sticker or rejection, just as a non plus coin is.

 

I'm sorry for the poor wording/typo in my post. The last paragraph of your post is consistent with what I meant to express. I was trying to make an argument that had a few assumptions that I did not make clear (namely that I considered the plus merely to be an indicator and not part of the grade per se - an assumption which I can now see is potentially assailable), and to illustrate why I believe that CAC must ignore the plus designation all together. Rather than create more confusion, I think I'll leave it alone. It's been a long week.

 

[FishyOne]

John and the other CAC graders have certain peeves. Among them are coins with rim dings. Did yours have a rim ding, even if minor? I have never seen a coin with a rim ding sticker. How about the toning? Was it heavily toned? If so, this appears to be another peeve (darker toning even if attractive).

 

I wish I still had the images because I've sold the coin. I posted it in another CAC thread here about a year ago. I think everyone thought it should have stickered. I know most of you guys thought it looked great. In the images it looked like a 66 but in-hand it wasn't quite as flashy.

 

No rim dings, mostly brilliant with some frost and only the slightest light toning. Well struck and a common date which I think was an '81-S. It was a $150 coin. Not a biggie but as I recall it was the first + coin I had purchased.

[MarkFeld]

remember A B C A high end for the grade B soild for the grade C low end for the grade

 

if IF THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS WITH THE COIN

 

so if you send in a 65+ graded coin pcgs/ngc to cac and it does not sticker (barring no other problems with the coin cac looks at the coin graded 65 and sayz is it A B C?? they thought C low end for the grade

 

their opinion you asked for it you got it if you cant take their opinion trust yourself and dont send anything in i wish everyone for a green bean THAT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

 

IF YOU WANT A MS65+ NGC GRADED COIN and you want it CAC STICKERED EITHER BUY IT CAC STICKERED OR ASK THE SELLER TO SEND IT IN FOR YOU as you will only buy it stickered cac

 

 

Yes, I understand where you're coming from. Thing is NGC thought "A" and CAC thought "C"? Assuming no problems of course, that's quite odd. Especially when the coin looked like a very solid 65.

 

My comment was related to CAC perhaps not WANTING to bean it BECAUSE it had the +. Again, I'm likely over-thinking it.

 

The plus had nothing to do with why they declined to sticker the coin. Again, they ignore the plus, when making their determination.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I see no point submitting a "plus" graded PCGS or NGC coin to CAC, the coin has already been judged as premium quality, why get it "approved" by CAC? Plus Bluesheet published plus and CAC pricing of many type and better date coins are very close in terms of market value if you compare both.

 

My reason for CAC submissions are better market potential for those coins, which IMO has already been established with a plus. I have submitted just one plus coin that did CAC. Those of us on Coinplex can compare various bid levels and there are cases where the CAC sticker does not increase active bids out there, it certainly does with the gem material.

[MarkFeld]

I see no point submitting a "plus" graded PCGS or NGC coin to CAC, the coin has already been judged as premium quality, why get it "approved" by CAC? Plus Bluesheet published plus and CAC pricing of many type and better date coins are very close in terms of market value if you compare both.

 

My reason for CAC submissions are better market potential for those coins, which IMO has already been established with a plus. I have submitted just one plus coin that did CAC. Those of us on Coinplex can compare various bid levels and there are cases where the CAC sticker does not increase active bids out there, it certainly does with the gem material.

 

Many plus graded coins trade at very small premiums (and justifiably so, in my opinion). And getting them stickered by CAC can increase their market value and/or liquidity.

 

Also, in numerous instances, CAC stickered coins are bid and sell at prices which are considerably higher than "Bluesheet".

[mikew148]

I see no point submitting a "plus" graded PCGS or NGC coin to CAC, the coin has already been judged as premium quality, why get it "approved" by CAC? Plus Bluesheet published plus and CAC pricing of many type and better date coins are very close in terms of market value if you compare both.

 

My reason for CAC submissions are better market potential for those coins, which IMO has already been established with a plus. I have submitted just one plus coin that did CAC. Those of us on Coinplex can compare various bid levels and there are cases where the CAC sticker does not increase active bids out there, it certainly does with the gem material.

 

Many plus graded coins trade at very small premiums (and justifiably so, in my opinion). And getting them stickered by CAC can increase their market value and/or liquidity.

 

Also, in numerous instances, CAC stickered coins are bid and sell at prices which are considerably higher than "Bluesheet".

 

In your opinion, is a CAC endorsement superior to a + designation from NGC/PCGS?

 

[MarkFeld]

I see no point submitting a "plus" graded PCGS or NGC coin to CAC, the coin has already been judged as premium quality, why get it "approved" by CAC? Plus Bluesheet published plus and CAC pricing of many type and better date coins are very close in terms of market value if you compare both.

 

My reason for CAC submissions are better market potential for those coins, which IMO has already been established with a plus. I have submitted just one plus coin that did CAC. Those of us on Coinplex can compare various bid levels and there are cases where the CAC sticker does not increase active bids out there, it certainly does with the gem material.

 

Many plus graded coins trade at very small premiums (and justifiably so, in my opinion). And getting them stickered by CAC can increase their market value and/or liquidity.

 

Also, in numerous instances, CAC stickered coins are bid and sell at prices which are considerably higher than "Bluesheet".

 

In your opinion, is a CAC endorsement superior to a + designation from NGC/PCGS?

 

Sorry, but to me, that is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

And I prefer to look at the coin, itself, in order to form my opinion of it and it's value, regardless of the sticker or the plus.

[mikew148]

I see no point submitting a "plus" graded PCGS or NGC coin to CAC, the coin has already been judged as premium quality, why get it "approved" by CAC? Plus Bluesheet published plus and CAC pricing of many type and better date coins are very close in terms of market value if you compare both.

 

My reason for CAC submissions are better market potential for those coins, which IMO has already been established with a plus. I have submitted just one plus coin that did CAC. Those of us on Coinplex can compare various bid levels and there are cases where the CAC sticker does not increase active bids out there, it certainly does with the gem material.

 

Many plus graded coins trade at very small premiums (and justifiably so, in my opinion). And getting them stickered by CAC can increase their market value and/or liquidity.

 

Also, in numerous instances, CAC stickered coins are bid and sell at prices which are considerably higher than "Bluesheet".

 

In your opinion, is a CAC endorsement superior to a + designation from NGC/PCGS?

 

Sorry, but to me, that is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

And I prefer to look at the coin, itself, in order to form my opinion of it and it's value, regardless of the sticker or the plus.

 

Fair enough. I was just wondering if there was a "general feeling" of one carrying more weight than the other.

With each coin being different I guess it's not prudent to make general/blanket statements regarding the different services.

 

[michael]

remember A B C A high end for the grade B soild for the grade C low end for the grade

 

if IF THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS WITH THE COIN

 

so if you send in a 65+ graded coin pcgs/ngc to cac and it does not sticker (barring no other problems with the coin cac looks at the coin graded 65 and sayz is it A B C?? they thought C low end for the grade

 

their opinion you asked for it you got it if you cant take their opinion trust yourself and dont send anything in i wish everyone for a green bean THAT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

 

IF YOU WANT A MS65+ NGC GRADED COIN and you want it CAC STICKERED EITHER BUY IT CAC STICKERED OR ASK THE SELLER TO SEND IT IN FOR YOU as you will only buy it stickered cac

 

 

Yes, I understand where you're coming from. Thing is NGC thought "A" and CAC thought "C"? Assuming no problems of course, that's quite odd. Especially when the coin looked like a very solid 65.--------I TOTALLY AGREE MAYBE WE MISSED SOMETHING OR MAYBE THE PERSON AT CAC THAT DAY JUST DID NOT LIKE IT REMEMBER GRADING IS EXTREMELY SUBJECTIVE SORRY IT HAPPENED

 

My comment was related to CAC perhaps not WANTING to bean it BECAUSE it had the +. Again, I'm likely over-thinking it.

---- IT IS DIFFICULT TO GET CORRECT INFORMATION UNLESS THE COIN YOU SEND TO CAC YOU WRITE ON THE SUBMISSION FORM PLEASE HAVE JA CALL OR WRITE ON A POST IT NOTE AND ATTATCH TO THE COIN AS TO WHY THE COIN DID NOT STICKER IF IT ACTUALLY DOESNOT STICKER

 

THEN YOU WILL KNOW CAC REASON

 

 

OKIE let me sum up cac in simple terms when cac stickers a coin it is only saying one thing a network of dealers and/or(JA HIMSELF) might be willing to make an offer on the coin at a future date---------- and there are published bids for cac stickered coins on coinplex and cce now there might be some cac stickered coins that at the present moment JA doesnot need/want/etc in that case no offer will be made

[Nutmeg Coin]

You would have to do a thorough market analysis to answer these questions on plus vs. CAC valuations. It is the high end market for sure where the price differential of non-CAC vs. CAC coins is significant. Since the grading services do not make check offers for plus coins as CAC does that does affect valuation. Most of the coins I have sent to CAC have $100 or maybe $200 upside for the sticker. MS65 Saints and $20 Libs. have a huge price upside with CAC but the odds are under 20% as Heritage told me of all coins they submit. So that means you are spending $62.50 for every coin that does sticker.