A United States gold disk that might be something new for some of you

[MJ]

Has PCGS graded any? Just curious.

 

Yes. MJ

[RWB]

If yu buy one, insist on certification, and get a piece that shows maximum detail and sharpness - there are many flatly struck pieces.

[mkman123]

Rwb, thanks for all your knowledge.......I do have to ask....the wheelchair that was given....I bet it was not a normal one...maybe pure gold with diamonds?

[RWB]

Nope...just FDR's ordinary backup wheelchair. The King had nothing like it and used his at every opportunity in private. He also admired FDR's willingness to minimize his paralysis without trying to completely hide it.

 

The King's sons still rein in Jidda.

 

[Onadlos-migration]

This is really interesting. Did the US Mint produce many different coins not intended for the US public? Is there a good reference on this practice?

[RWB]

There is a booklet produced by the US Mint that lists all the coins struck for foreign governments including the Saudi gold discs. It does not mention the gold struck for Iran, because Iran provided all the metal. It also excludes pieces struck at Bombay and Calcutta from dies provided by the US - thalers, riyals, etc.

[AnkurJ]

Definetly a piece I'd love to own some day.

[mkman123]

Same here Ankurj but the price would need to drop a lot more for me to even trying buying one. I could get so many other neat coins, I'm more of a quantity person , applies to food as well.

[RWB]

You value "food" and "shelter" over your coin collection....? Hmmmmmm.....

[KeyMan64]

Wow! Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EXOJUNKIE]

Fascinating thread. Having only superficial knowledge of these myself, I've enjoyed it. Thanks to everyone for sharing!

[RWB]

Whenever I can get the manuscript finished, there will be a detailed section on the Saudi Gold Discs in the book: National Gold.

[mkman123]

RWB, I looked at your sig line and noticed you've authored some books and contributed to other books, research articles, etc.......is there a link online to see what you've contributed to and read them?

[grip]

Great read! Thanks RWB.

[RWB]

No, not really. Here’s a list of books and articles I’ve written, and other stuff. It might be missing a few recent things – I’m not great at keeping lists up to date.

 

Miscellaneous

Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, former numismatic expert member

ANA Maynard Sundman Lecturer, 2006

American Numismatic Society’s featured lecturer Saint-Gaudens Lecture Series, 2010

Featured lecturer at the ANA’s Destination Education – Augustus Saint-Gaudens, 2010

United States Federal District Court, approved expert in American Numismatics, 2011

 

Author of the following published books

Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921, Seneca Mill Press LLC. 2005. (NLG Book-of-the-Year 2006.)

Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908, Seneca Mill Press LLC. 2006. (NLG Book-of-the-Year 2007.)

Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915, Seneca Mill Press LLC. 2007. (NLG Book-of-the-Year 2008.)

A Guide Book of Peace Dollars, Whitman Publishing LLC, 2008.

Annual Assay Commission Minutes, 1800-1943, Seneca Mill Press LLC. 2010 (4-DVD set). (NLG Extraordinary Merit award, 2011.)

Silver Dollars Coined Under the Pittman Act of 1918, Seneca Mill Press LLC. 2011 (CD).

 

The following books and monographs are nearing publication

National Gold,

From Mine to Mint,

United States Pattern and Experimental Pieces of World War II,

Dr. Barclay’s Magic Money, 80-page monograph

Anna Williams THE Girl on the Silver Dollar? ,120-page monograph

Anna W. Williams a Biographical Sketch, 40 page monograph.

 

Numismatic Book Contributions and Articles

Guide Book of United States Coins,

United States Pattern Coins, Experimental and Trial Pieces, 8th ed. to present

USPatterns.com,

Whitman Guide Books, for double eagles, nickels, type coins, silver dollars, quarters and others, David Lange’s book Complete Guide to Buffalo Nickels,

Consultation to author Alison Frankel for her book Double Eagle.

Select auction lot descriptions for Heritage Auctions and Stack’s/Stack’s-Bowers auctions.

 

Numismatic Publications – Articles

“Designer of 1920 Maine Centennial Half Dollar Identified” 2002

“The 1942 Half-Dime” 2003

“Origin of Bela Pratt’s Half Eagle – 1908” 2003

“Albin Polasek – Forgotten Coin Designer” 2004

“Anthony de Francisci’s Jefferson Nickel” 2004

“History of the Saint-Gaudens $10 Gold Eagle” 2004

“By Hammer and Anvil – An American Heritage Destroyed” 2004

“Washington Nickel – The Coin That Almost Was” 2004

“1909/8 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle” 2005

“The Saint-Gaudens Extremely High Relief MCMVII Double Eagle” 2006

“King Of Morgan Dollars Revisited” 2006

“New Gold Patterns Discovered” 2006

“Unneeded in Commerce” [Gold dollars used for jewelry] 2006

“The Saint-Gaudens $10 Gold Eagle” 2006

“A Collaboration of Wills: Saint-Gaudens and Roosevelt Begin the American Coinage Renaissance” 2006

“Origin of Modern Proof Coinage” 2007

“Saint-Gaudens’ Victory on Coinage” 2007

“Congressman’s Diary Reveals Original Owners of Rare Saint-Gaudens Gold Eagles”

(by Roger W. Burdette and Jeff Reichenberger) 2007

“1938 Jefferson Nickel Trial Strike Discovered” 2007

“Adjustors & Selectors – Quality Control at the Mint” 2007

“Making Sense of the First Peace Dollars” 2008

“Least Expensive, Spectacular Doubled Die is Not a “’Cent’” 2008

“Shield Nickel Almost a Short-Lived Design” 2008

“Research Comments on the 1909/8 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle” 2008

“Protecting the Date on Standing Liberty Quarters” 2009

“Extant Rare 20th Century Gold” 2009

“Making Sense of the First Peace Dollars” 2009

“Questions Relating to 1933 Double Eagles” 2009

“New Research Explains Alabama Centennial Half Dollar Mintage” 2010

“American Original on the Half Dollar – 1948” 2010

“Were 1933 Double Eagles Paid Out at the Philadelphia Mint?” 2010

“First 1933 Double Eagles Struck Before Recall Orders” 2010

“1933 Double Eagles Substituted for 1932 Coins by Mint” 2010

“The Elusive 1929 Half Eagle” 2010

“Research Identifies Possible Reasons for Low Mintage” 2011

“Disappointed With the Mint” 2011

 

Private Research Reports

Multiple detailed reports on various numismatic subjects.

 

Coin Discoveries

2 different 1907 $10 gold patterns

1908 $5 Saint-Gaudens hubs (w/John Mercanti)

1922 medium relief Peace dollar

 

[mkman123]

Wow! I for one am glad to have you here on the boards and enjoy reading your posts!

 

 

[TWCableMan-migration]

I have never seen or heard of one of those, very interesting and thankyou for educating me, like the old saying goes, I learn something new every day

[leeg]

Roger has not only written what he stated above but has also given his time to budding numismatist's in their research and writing endeavor's.

 

In my opinion, that put's him at the QDB level, maybe higher depending on who you talk to, like me.

[nunfa0]

We are way spoiled by having RWB and many others here to teach and mentor us. For that I am truly thankful.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Nope...just FDR's ordinary backup wheelchair. The King had nothing like it and used his at every opportunity in private. He also admired FDR's willingness to minimize his paralysis without trying to completely hide it.

 

The King's sons still rein in Jidda.

 

I bet they have really nice ones, too...

 

 

It being Saudi Arabia, I doubt they had much rain during their reigns...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Roger has not only written what he stated above but has also given his time to budding numismatist's in their research and writing endeavor's.

 

In my opinion, that put's him at the QDB level, maybe higher depending on who you talk to, like me.

 

RWB is, in my opinion, the best reason to read the NGC board.

 

Funny as hell, smart as a whip, beyond knowledgable, and easily approachable.

 

Hope my sycophantism doesn't embarrass him too much.

 

[BillJones]

RWB is, in my opinion, the best reason to read the NGC board.

 

RWB got the can ATS. That was their mistake and their loss.

[RWB]

Thanks, folks. But this is all about enjoying your hobby, and the history that goes with it. It's fun to find new and interesting (or boring) material. I can't afford the coins, but I can try to bring to collectors the richness and scope of American numismatics.

 

(Many of the articles can be read in the Coin World on-line archive. Wizard Coin Supply distributes and sells the books.)

 

[RWB]

There are lots of people here with greater experience and expertise than I have; so we should appreciate the diversity and span of knowledge that members give freely and without hesitation.

[johnny9434]

ive never seen one of them, thats very interesting

[1946hamm-migration]

I always thought they were neat, so I picked them up in 2003. They are not slabbed but they are real and from a reliable dealer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AlbertPike-migration]

I think they fit someplace near the territorial coins and assay bars, or ...??

 

Hi, thanks to everyone posting so much information on this thread, there were historical elements I would have been totally unaware of.

 

Recently coinweek had a video of the 1852 Humbert $10 Territorial Gold piece that sold for over a million Dollars. The crazy thing is that I only clicked on the Video because the coin at 1st glance looked like the Saudi Arabia KM 34 Aramco coin.

 

A few months ago I picked up an Aramco 4 pound...a rather serendipitious affair. There was an article, not a very good one at that, in November 2012 regarding this Aramco coin. Then a few months later saw one in a jewellery store and bought it, not for melt btw.

 

Anyway I was interested if anyone knew who it was that designed the coin? I understand that King Abdul Aziz and his cohorts had some say in the design process, which makes me think they may have wanted the elements of the $10 Augustus Humbert on this coin. The person involved with the design must have had exceptional knowledge on coins as they chose a similar element from the 1874 $10 Bickford pattern for designating gold content. Listing the weight and the fineness on the coin without as much as a monetary designation was likely the right thing to do for the Saudi Government, although it would have been nice to see some monetary value on the coin.

 

Also does anyone know Why the Bundesbank has this in their collection as "Anonymous"? I would have expected that this coin would have some designation other than that, especially from a collection that spans 388,000 coins and bank notes.

 

http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Standardartikel/Bundesbank/Coin_and_banknote_collection/coin_and_banknote_collection_recent_acquisitions_anonym.html?nsc=true&view=render[Druckversion]

 

For those that want an undervalued coin this is it. I do believe these are still priced attractively especially due to the Aramco story, design elements harkening from the Territorial coins, and relative rarity above AU grade.

 

Crunching through some numbers from grading services I beleive that there are only 26 graded in the MS-61 and above for the 4 Pound KM #34 coins.

 

 

 

[RWB]

Most of the on-line and published information on these pieces are bologna -- some even fit the term souse.

 

The pieces are part of the US government's policy of striking coins and doing other things for other countries, so they have absolutely no relevance to US Territorial tokens or coins.

 

Also, the pieces were NOT made for the oil concession. The US made silver riyals and fractions that were indirectly used by ARAMCO.

 

One sovereign, four sovereign and five Troy ounce bars were made as part of the State Department’s support for the Saudi government. The design was decided entirely at Mint HQ: the eagle is the same as used on bullion bars and the reverse states the technical specifications. The mint referred to them as bullion pieces since they had no specified denomination and were not a legal tender in Saudi Arabia.

 

[i did considerable research on these as part of work on a book, but then decided not to publish the book. The research is too long and detailed for normal hobby magazines.]

 

From page 2 of this thread:

1) The large pieces were equal to 4 sovereigns, the small pieces were 1 sovereign. The 4 sovereign pieces have been widely counterfeited and most on the current market that have not been certified are likely fake.

 

2) The gold pieces had nothing to do with Aramco. Local oil company employees were always paid in silver, never gold.

 

3) Casoc/Aramco oil concession payments to the Royal Saudi government were always in sovereigns Paper money or bank credits were never accepted until the mid-1950s.

 

4) The gold discs, and 5-oz gold bars made previously by the NY Assay Office, were a form of financial aid to the Saudis. A sovereign was valued at approximately $8.24 with gold at $35 per Troy ounce. The Saudi Government could sell them at $12-$14 each through the Banque de L’Indo-Chine, or at $14-$18 each in riyal exchange. But the Saudi Government could make a larger profit on sale of US gold discs for silver riyals than on sale of real sovereigns, even though the specifications were identical. In effect, the Saudi government doubled their money by reselling the US gold discs. Further profit was had by manipulating the exchange rate for silver riyals vs gold on the local market.

[Conder101]

Possibly they were listed as anonymous because they don't actually have a country name on them. Yes they do say US Mint Philadelphia, but that was just who made them not who they were for or where they were intended to be used. Those pieces of information are not on the coin so anonymous makes some sense.

[BillJones]

3) Casoc/Aramco oil concession payments to the Royal Saudi government were always in sovereigns Paper money or bank credits were never accepted until the mid-1950s.

 

Were the Saudis strictly paid in British gold sovereigns or were these American sovereigns ever used to pay the Saudi oil royalties? If the American gold pieces were not used for that purpose just after World War II, what was their purpose? Somehow I find it difficult to not believe that these pieces didn't have something to do with the oil royalty payments.

 

As for the comment that they were not used in Saudi Arabia by the oil workers, I can see perfect logic in that, but I could see where some senior managers might get their fingers on some of these gold disks. I could see some credibility of the story, perhaps anecdotal, when these pieces might have shown up in poker games and the like. Having worked for some large companies I can tell you that some senior managers can do some usual things with the financial power they have within a company not to the level of a scandal, but to the point of bending the rules.