Is there a way to tell if a coin is possibly heavy cameo under gorgeous toning?

[Leothelion]

Hi everyone

I guess it's an impossible endeaver to see the frost or deep mirrors on a proof coin if toning has taken over the coin. But what if there was a special kind of lighting or method (besides cleaning the coin ) to see whether or not a coin was cameo under the toning! I imagine, NGC and ANACS have a tough time with this unless they have a method, calling the shot on this. I have a few proofs like this where the toning is more prevalent then the frost but parts of the coin, the date or letters and the other devices will show partial frost or deep mirrors. Any thoughts out there would be helpful!

 

Leo

[michael]

it is a no brainer for me TO SEE TRUE deep cameo proof coins withIN my areas of speciality that are medium to deeply toned with deep mirrors and the contrast to again make the coin cameo and even deep cameo! and this is seen on a regular basis

 

 

 

and since the services will not award cameo let alone deep cameo to deeply toned proof coins and for good reasons the point is moot

 

this does not mean they are not deeply mirrored and also deeply cameoed this just means again that the two major services will not grade these coins as such and again too for good reasons!

 

this is why there are so many hazy ugly cloudy dipped coins out there thaT ARE NOW IN CAMEO AND DEEP CAMEO HOLDERS

 

michael

[airplanenut]

There are some coins where I can see it, and other coins where it's been lost to color. This one, now a PF66RB I thought should have gone at least CAM:

 

 

Jeremy

[Leothelion]

Darn you Jeremy! Now I'll need to get MY camera out and show a coin or two to get my point across!

Nice coin, by the way!

 

Hi Micheal

It might be possible if a difference could be seen in the surface texture (bad word, I know) between a frosted and non-frosted proof!

(Man! Am I'm thinking all the time or what!) Is this possible?

 

Leo

[TomB]

It shouldn't be too difficult to see cameo contrast underneath toning unless the layer of toning is so deep as to completely obscure it. In my experience, that condition is truly rare.

[nOoBiEeE-migration]

Deep toning like this you mean...? NGC so far got all the cameo's correct, including 1 that was UCAM also with really nice toning all over.

 

[CarlWohlforth]

I'll add a photo below of a proof 20 cent piece with heavy redish toning. PCGS didn't give it cameo though it clearly is. I have a toned Roosevelt dime that NGC did give an Ultra cam. While the centers are not toned the rims are heavily toned.

 

The services should give cameos to these coins. By not doing so they encourage dipping these neat coins. This is because people seem to pay extra for the cameo designation.

 

[Hoot]

"The services should give cameos to these coins. By not doing so they encourage dipping these neat coins. This is because people seem to pay extra for the cameo designation."

 

 

I've looked at a number of toned proofs that were clearly cameo pieces but not designated as such. If they were dipped, it would ruin the coin and bring more money to the seller.

 

With the right lighting (correction filters, etc.) the coin's toning is rendered neutral and the cameo can be seen clearly, unless it's black.

 

Hoot

[Oldtrader3]

I agree with Hoot. I have attached scan of an 1874 Proof SL Dime which is cameo, although not designated as such. The scan does not show the reflective fields well. You have to tilt the coin to see them through the heavy toning.

[CarlWohlforth]

I like that 1874 proof dime!

[Oldtrader3]

Thanks, Carl. It is in my US Type Set.

[John Maben]

Carl,

 

That is a nice looking twenty cent piece! Looks full cameo to me, and I agree it should be called that. however, in the cases where you're pretty sure it's there but it is being obscured by toning, I like the conservative approach of not giving it the designation.

 

John

[HaydenTubbs]

I'll add a photo below of a proof 20 cent piece with heavy redish toning. PCGS didn't give it cameo though it clearly is. I have a toned Roosevelt dime that NGC did give an Ultra cam. While the centers are not toned the rims are heavily toned.

 

The services should give cameos to these coins. By not doing so they encourage dipping these neat coins. This is because people seem to pay extra for the cameo designation.

 

Nice twenty center,is the reverse the same?

I agree that a richly toned non-cameo designated proof is more attractive then a dipped out Deep cameo.Unfortunately most people only are concerned with what the holder says...

However if you've got a sharp eye you can pick out some stunning cameo proofs if non-cam holders

Now if I could only get them into Cameo holders...

[CTcollector]

I've attached a picture of and 1895 CAMEO 50C that has thick toning throughout. Hopefully, this can be used as a good example of underlying cameo on toned coins as 1895 barbers are known to come cameo quite frequently. You will notice that the Obverse Portrait and Reverse Eagle have some flash to them and has different color to the fields. This is how I can tell this coin is a cameo as the flash I mention represents the cameo contrast underneath the toning. There is something under the toning giving this part of the coin more life. If the coin did not have any underlying cameo contrast the coin wouldn't have any flash on the devices. This is not an absolute statement on my part as I have never dipped a coin to see what lay underneath. This is the just the way I got comfortable with toned cameos over the years.

 

My observations on toned cameos over the last few years is that the grading companies are all over the map. There are some coins that are obvious cameo's that do not get the designation while some others that recieved the designation are dark with zero flash on the device. I think the grading services have value in mind when they assign cameo designation to toned proofs. If the coin's value will go up substantially with a cameo designation they are more conservative, if the value only goes up marginally they are more liberal. Either way they are designating more cameo's to toned coins today then they did 5 years ago which is saving many from the dipping solution.

[CTcollector]

Reverse of 1895 barber cameo 50C mentioned in previous response

[EZ_E]

There are some coins where I can see it, and other coins where it's been lost to color. This one, now a PF66RB I thought should have gone at least CAM:

 

 

Jeremy

 

Very seldom will you see a grading service designate toned copper as cameo. Why is anyone's guess but it is probably for fear of the coin turning later on in the holder, therby lowering the TPGS's reputation.

[AlixTCat]

There are some coins where I can see it, and other coins where it's been lost to color. This one, now a PF66RB I thought should have gone at least CAM:

 

 

Jeremy

 

Is it REALLY that color? It looks like a filter. Wow! Really cool! I still can't believe it really looks that way. But, I trust your photograpy skills, so it must.

 

Jonathan

[JIM F.]

Here's a before and after of a toned PF-65, that came back DCAM PF-65 after a dip.