What can I do if my NGC IHC is turning in the case?

[JOBESSI]

I have an IHC (a pretty high grade with a RD) designation that the red is starting to dissipate as if it were AC. Am I stuck with this, or does NGC have a policy to protect this? I plan on calling tomorrow

[WoodenJefferson]

Ahhhhh..exactly what do you mean here?

 

the red is starting to dissipate as if it were AC

[JOBESSI]

I'll post a pic 2morrow when I get on the comp. It's a deep red with tan-like color peeking through.

[michael]

STILL MIGHT BE FULL RED with a slight mellowing of the color but with red coins if it is at least 95%+ red it might still be called red

 

also depending on what the date/pricing is this plays a role in the final equasion/evaulation

 

 

[mkman123]

could to be toning?

[TomB]

Coins designated RD do not actually have to be fully red. As far as I know, NGC has in place a copper color guarantee that is good for ten years from the date of encapsulation.

[brg5658]

STILL MIGHT BE FULL RED with a slight mellowing of the color but with red coins if it is at least 95%+ red it might still be called red

 

I have heard this 95% number thrown around before, but have never been able to find it anywhere on NGC's website. I think it is what people assume, but is not actually true. Indeed, the NGC website for copper color designation of Lincoln Cents says the following:

"There is no fixed rule for designating a Lincoln cent red (RD) versus red and brown (RB) or simply brown (BN). As a general rule, RD cents exhibit about 85 to 90 percent of their original color, while RB cents display at least 15 to 20 percent red. Any coin with less red or non-red coloration will be designated BN."

 

I am under the assumption that IHCs should be graded using the same rough estimated % of red...or at least, I don't see any reason why they would be graded using different rough cut-offs.

 

Here's the link: http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/Grading-Lincoln-Cents.aspx

[MarkFeld]

Even if the coin does not currently deserve a "RD" designation - and that s a big IF at this point - it doesn't mean that NGC "missed a color grade". The coin might have changed in appearance after it was graded.

 

So your thread title is potentially misleading and unfair to NGC. Either way, if you are convinced that the color isn't "RD" you should contact NGC, see if their guarantee is still in effect for the coin and proceed from there.

[Conder101]

I think the real question he is asking is does NGC guarantee the color designation and if it changes from RD to RB or BN is he entitled to compensation.

 

If that is the case then the important part from their guarantee is

 

The NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper-nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000.

 

To the extent that the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee applies to copper, bronze or copper-nickel coins, such Guarantee expires on the 10-year anniversary of their date of encapsulation by NGC.

 

Which means that if it was slabbed before May 23, 2002 you are out of luck. If it was slabbed more recently then you may be entitled to some compensation. One thing I don't know is if the ten year rule is strictly from the time of original slabbing or if it is renewed by regrading or reholdering.

[coinman_23885]

If the coin was encapsulated prior to April of 2000, then there is no copper guarantee. If however, the coin was certified afterwards, there is a ten year guarantee from the date of encapsulation. I would contact them.

[coinman_23885]

STILL MIGHT BE FULL RED with a slight mellowing of the color but with red coins if it is at least 95%+ red it might still be called red

 

I have heard this 95% number thrown around before, but have never been able to find it anywhere on NGC's website. I think it is what people assume, but is not actually true. Indeed, the NGC website for copper color designation of Lincoln Cents says the following:

"There is no fixed rule for designating a Lincoln cent red (RD) versus red and brown (RB) or simply brown (BN). As a general rule, RD cents exhibit about 85 to 90 percent of their original color, while RB cents display at least 15 to 20 percent red. Any coin with less red or non-red coloration will be designated BN."

 

I am under the assumption that IHCs should be graded using the same rough estimated % of red...or at least, I don't see any reason why they would be graded using different rough cut-offs.

 

Here's the link: http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/Grading-Lincoln-Cents.aspx

 

At one point, I specifically recall seeing the 95% cutoff value on the NGC site somewhere. It is possible that they have changed this. With this said, I find it difficult to believe that a TPG would knowingly apply the "RD" designation to a coin that only retains 85% percent of its original red color. The coin should be RB, in my opinion, at that stage.

 

Going back to other points that were made, it is likely that the coin toned in the TPG's slab. This isn't unusual and you cannot blame the TPG per se. As indicated, NGC still covers the color designation under its guarantee within the time limits set forth in my previous reply.

 

Edited to add: For the newer slabbed coins, I recommend that you have them reholdered before the ten year anniversary of encapsulation. I once contacted NGC on this matter and was advised that if a coin was reholdered, the guarantee would start again from the new date of encapsulation (i.e. the reholder date). To me, this is a cheap way to insure yourself against color changes.

[brg5658]

STILL MIGHT BE FULL RED with a slight mellowing of the color but with red coins if it is at least 95%+ red it might still be called red

 

I have heard this 95% number thrown around before, but have never been able to find it anywhere on NGC's website. I think it is what people assume, but is not actually true. Indeed, the NGC website for copper color designation of Lincoln Cents says the following:

"There is no fixed rule for designating a Lincoln cent red (RD) versus red and brown (RB) or simply brown (BN). As a general rule, RD cents exhibit about 85 to 90 percent of their original color, while RB cents display at least 15 to 20 percent red. Any coin with less red or non-red coloration will be designated BN."

 

I am under the assumption that IHCs should be graded using the same rough estimated % of red...or at least, I don't see any reason why they would be graded using different rough cut-offs.

 

Here's the link: http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/Grading-Lincoln-Cents.aspx

 

At one point, I specifically recall seeing the 95% cutoff value on the NGC site somewhere. It is possible that they have changed this. With this said, I find it difficult to believe that a TPG would knowingly apply the "RD" designation to a coin that only retains 85% percent of its original red color. The coin should be RB, in my opinion, at that stage.

 

Going back to other points that were made, it is likely that the coin toned in the TPG's slab. This isn't unusual and you cannot blame the TPG per se. As indicated, NGC still covers the color designation under its guarantee within the time limits set forth in my previous reply.

 

Edited to add: For the newer slabbed coins, I recommend that you have them reholdered before the ten year anniversary of encapsulation. I once contacted NGC on this matter and was advised that if a coin was reholdered, the guarantee would start again from the new date of encapsulation (i.e. the reholder date). To me, this is a cheap way to insure yourself against color changes.

 

Kenny, the problem is that humans are notoriously bad at discerning percentages of a 2-D area that are one color versus another. Particularly bad is the ability to determine percentages of circular areas. This is why pie charts are considered by every serious researcher to be among the worst possible way of displaying data. My point being that the difference between "85%" and "95%" is a pretty fine distinction, especially on a copper disc 19mm in diameter. If the coin were being scanned by a machine and the pixels of a certain brightness were being counted, then such a definitive cut-off would be possible. But, this is not the case.

 

If you care to do some reading on the psychology of graphic representation and visual display, I would recommend any book by Edward R. Tufte (Linky) or the seminal and classic work by Bertin.

[MarkFeld]

The determination of "RD" vs. "RB" vs. "BN" color can be far more complex than merely trying to ascertain the % of "RD" or "RB" color that remains. Not that that, in itself, isn't sometimes plenty difficult.

 

One side of the coin can have a much different color than the other. For example, what color designation do you assign to a coin that is 100% brown on the obverse and 30% red-brown on the reverse? "BN" or "RB"? And if it's 100% brown on the obverse and 20% red-brown on the reverse? Or 90% brown on the obverse and 80% brown on the reverse? And so on.

 

Also, some coins have uniform (RD) color on one or both sides, but the color is slightly mellowed. How mellowed can it be and still qualify as "RD"? Ditto for uniform (RB) color that is oh-so-close to "BN".

 

The bottom line is that there are an infinite number of possible color combinations that we try to group into only three categories. And there are obviously many cases in which there is no objective or measurable correct call.

[brg5658]

The determination of "RD" vs. "RB" vs. "BN" color can be far more complex than merely trying to ascertain the % of "RD" or "RB" color that remains. Not that that, in itself, isn't sometimes plenty difficult.

 

One side of the coin can have a much different color than the other. For example, what color designation do you assign to a coin that is 100% brown on the obverse and 30% red-brown on the reverse? "BN" or "RB"? And if it's 100% brown on the obverse and 20% red-brown on the reverse? Or 90% brown on the obverse and 80% brown on the reverse? And so on.

 

Also, some coins have uniform (RD) color on one or both sides, but the color is slightly mellowed. How mellowed can it be and still qualify as "RD"? Ditto for uniform (RB) color that is oh-so-close to "BN".

 

The bottom line is that there are an infinite number of possible color combinations that we try to group into only three categories. And there are obviously many cases in which there is no objective or measurable correct call.

 

All very good points Mark. Trying to come up with some hard and fast definitive rule of "RD" vs "RB" vs "BN" is like trying to herd cats. There is no one solution to the problem. I know people want black and white (or red and brown) rules, but the truth is that (like most things in life) the reality lies somewhere in the gray.

[RWB]

...if you tap lightly on one side of the holder, that will usually make the coin turn back to a normal position.....

 

Oh --- wrong kind of "turning."

[realone]

DId the op ever answer the question, what does AC mean?

[coinman_23885]

DId the op ever answer the question, what does AC mean?

 

I think he means artificially colored. I meant to address this, but I forgot to mention it. With regards to a coin darkening in a holder, this doesn't mean that the coin is artificial or that it has been tampered with per se. Improper storage conditions, among other things, can cause this.

[coinman_23885]

STILL MIGHT BE FULL RED with a slight mellowing of the color but with red coins if it is at least 95%+ red it might still be called red

 

I have heard this 95% number thrown around before, but have never been able to find it anywhere on NGC's website. I think it is what people assume, but is not actually true. Indeed, the NGC website for copper color designation of Lincoln Cents says the following:

"There is no fixed rule for designating a Lincoln cent red (RD) versus red and brown (RB) or simply brown (BN). As a general rule, RD cents exhibit about 85 to 90 percent of their original color, while RB cents display at least 15 to 20 percent red. Any coin with less red or non-red coloration will be designated BN."

 

I am under the assumption that IHCs should be graded using the same rough estimated % of red...or at least, I don't see any reason why they would be graded using different rough cut-offs.

 

Here's the link: http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/Grading-Lincoln-Cents.aspx

 

At one point, I specifically recall seeing the 95% cutoff value on the NGC site somewhere. It is possible that they have changed this. With this said, I find it difficult to believe that a TPG would knowingly apply the "RD" designation to a coin that only retains 85% percent of its original red color. The coin should be RB, in my opinion, at that stage.

 

Going back to other points that were made, it is likely that the coin toned in the TPG's slab. This isn't unusual and you cannot blame the TPG per se. As indicated, NGC still covers the color designation under its guarantee within the time limits set forth in my previous reply.

 

Edited to add: For the newer slabbed coins, I recommend that you have them reholdered before the ten year anniversary of encapsulation. I once contacted NGC on this matter and was advised that if a coin was reholdered, the guarantee would start again from the new date of encapsulation (i.e. the reholder date). To me, this is a cheap way to insure yourself against color changes.

 

Kenny, the problem is that humans are notoriously bad at discerning percentages of a 2-D area that are one color versus another. Particularly bad is the ability to determine percentages of circular areas. This is why pie charts are considered by every serious researcher to be among the worst possible way of displaying data. My point being that the difference between "85%" and "95%" is a pretty fine distinction, especially on a copper disc 19mm in diameter. If the coin were being scanned by a machine and the pixels of a certain brightness were being counted, then such a definitive cut-off would be possible. But, this is not the case.

 

If you care to do some reading on the psychology of graphic representation and visual display, I would recommend any book by Edward R. Tufte (Linky) or the seminal and classic work by Bertin.

 

I certainly appreciate the information, and I look forward to reading it.

[Conder101]

Trying to come up with some hard and fast definitive rule of "RD" vs "RB" vs "BN" is like trying to herd cats.

Herding cats isn't hard. Just get in front of them, head in the direction you want them to go, and periodically play a recording of an electric can opener.

[messydesk]

If the over-100-year-old coin has changed color in the relatively short time (compared with its age) you've had it, and you've been able to notice this, then I would be worried and probably looking to replace it.