NGC "overgrades" coins!

[jom]

Do people keep sending the same coin back to PCGS/NGC over and over until they get their "happy" grade?

 

Yes they do and that is why the vast majority of coins have hit there "max" so to speak.

 

The dealers out there who do nothing but try to max out the grades in coins do absolutely NOTHING for the hobby. They are just lining their own pockets with dough because of the inefficentcy of the coin market.

 

jom

[TomB]

If you have owned your old-slab style coins since they were slabbed, or shortly afterward, then there is a better chance that those coins might upgrade today. If, however, you have acquired these coins relatively recently, then your chances of an upgrade are much lower since these old-slab style coins have been picked through thoroughly in order to find the upgrade candidates. In other words, not all coins slabbed at that time were high end for the grade.

 

As for submitting coins over and over in order to get the grade that is desired, I view these coins as "coffin coins" since they will never be taken out of their maxed-out slabs.

[DonHeath]

Travers said something once that I liked well enough to save. When discussing crackouts, he said,

 

"Note: The consumer is probably not harmed by this, because the market takes this bust-out activity into account. Obviously, if a coin could never be broken out of a holder once sealed, MS-65's would be considerably rarer than they are now. The prices bid on the ANE system would be much higher as a result. Therefore, if a buyer purchases a coin based on the prices reported today on ANE (or any other sight-unseen bidding system), suffice it to say that he (or she) is only paying for a "low-end" coin that has most likely achieved its ultimate grade. "

 

I guess what I take from his post is simply that sight seen, the holder grade isn't represented by a distinct single price, but rather a range of prices, and sight unseen, the holder grade is assumed to be a low quality coin for the grade. Sight seen, there is usually very little difference between a PQ 64 that should upgrade and a 65 that looks like it's maxed out. I think worrying about the upgrade may be a lazy way to sell, and worrying about the holder grade may be a lazy way to buy, sight seen on course. Sight unseen, the holder becomes very important. JMO

[coinman1794]

Following up with the last two posts: Yes, there are some undergraded coins out there in older holders, but the holder alone is not an indication of upgrade potential. The way one goes about finding an upgrade is by examining the coin itself and determining if it is nicer than the assigned grade. The old holder is no guarrantee of anything. In fact, as most older holder "finds" have been capitalized upon, there are many more good "finds" in newer holders. It's all about finding nice coins, and it's hard to diagnose the exact reasons why nice coins can be had, but I will briefly try to explain form my first hand knowlede.

 

This leads me to the question of maxing-out grades. Only on liner coins does this theory apply. I really hate when people assume that all re-submissions are "wrong for the hobby, and are only the result of peope playing a game trying to get gift grades, etc. It's just not always that way. While it is true that many coins are maxed-out, and that continual submission will max many coins out, there are still those coins that are simply undergraded to begin with (and they are in every style of holder). And, sending those coins in again is not maxing them out at all, just correcting the ERRORS (yes ERRORS!) of the services. The services, at there best, only claim an 80% accuracy rate, which leaves a full 20% that could be wrong! In my experience as a regular submitter to the top 3 servies, this is more like 40-60%, and I'm not kidding. I have had entire invoices of coins sent to NGC that graded 1-2 grades lower than they should have (i'm talking obviously!) If I were to leave them alone, I would be screwed by the errors of the services. The grades were worng! And, upon resubmitting the coins with notes as to why NGC was wrong, they change the grades appropriately. this happens all the time!!!! I recently had an entire submission of designation review coins come back with no coins on the invoice having received the designation, even though all of them were obvious FBL's, FB's and FT's! I sent these back and complained, and all got the proper designations. If I had not acted I would have again been screwed by their errors! And these erros are baltant, most of the time. If you learn how to grade and you are an expert at it, point things out to the services...you may very well be right!!! Further, I can't count the number of PQ coins that have gone from 66 to 64 and then to 65, when they look like solid MS67's. The difference between 64 and 66/67 is emense, to s put it mildly. The graders had their eye s closed. With just these few experiences, (there are couintless others) I am trying to show others that this notion of maxing out and damaging the hobby is often, yet not always, wrong. The only person damaged buy the originally assigned grades was myself. The coins all deserved higher grades. That is why NGC fixes these problems, for free, when I point them out. I will stress again, that this happens to me all the time, and unless I am living in some sort of si-fi magnetic warp zone, it's happening to you too. You just probably don't know it! It's nonsense to believe that every coin that comes from the services is accurately and appropriately graded the first time through. All the servies make a lot of mistakes, all the time. I know...I've been there! I'm there now! Right now, in fact, I have a group of PL quarters that recently came back from NGC. None of them got the PL and I will be sending them all back with a note, and they will re-examine the coins and fix there mistakes. If I were to let these go as is, I would be getting screwed, not the hobby! If anything, the hobby would be worse off for having mis-designated material on the market. Begining collectors would say, "Wy is this quarter with deep mirrirs designated PL, while this identical piece is not?" I'm not maxing anything out, I am getting what's rightfully mine...the correct grade. I just wish I could get it the first time! None of the services are even close to accuracy the first time through, and that's why I laugh when I here that anybody takes the first grade as gospel, some even call them the grading gods Now, as i have stated, there is truth to the max-out theory, as I will now explain, but it is a different story all together. My goel here is to point out the difference between honest misgrading and greed. What I have just recounted is something that I have never seen others talk about, that's why I wonder if maybe I am living in some sort of harmful magnetic field! Almost every submission has some sort of glitch.

 

Max outs:

Then, there are those that are very close to the next grade, and honestly, could go either way. This is the best case for the max-out argument. Too many overgraded 67's are out there with chewed up surfaces and montser eye appeal that put them in a 7 holder. Others are ugly and chewed up and still in the 7 holder. Franky, just send these back to the service, they will usually downgrade them for me. Usually the attractive chewed up coins will not downgrade, though. And, with NCS next door, many ugly chewed up NGC coins will be conserved when submitted for a downgrade, and turned into attractive chewed up coins, free of charge. I wish they would downgrade all of them, though. I can't live with these coins in my collection! (My hatred of overgraded coins is what causes me to get upset when others accuse re-submitters, accross the board, of being max-outers. I send in a lot of coins, but i do not tolerate overgraded material. Overgrading and re-submitting just do not always go together. You can send in a lot of coins all the time and not be a max-out artist.) These coins are the result of maxing out. Taking that 66 with eye appeal and sending it until you get lucky. When I get these coins in, I always send them in for Appearance review for downgrade. I will at least try to get the lower grade, although, when they coins have eye appeal, they never downgrade.

 

I have not proofread this long post, so sorry for the mistakes. I hope this information is enlightening to others. One final note, strive for accuracy in grading. I would liek to see all cons graded corrctly, not undergraded, and not overgraded.

[chinook]

Thats a long post coinman, but I like it. I love to hear about actual experiences.

[coinman1794]

Thanks! I haven't been posting here for a while so I have a lot of make-up posting to do, and, it was a long account anyway, and it just took a lot of space!

 

Boy, this thread sure died after I chimmed in...is it something I said?

[michael]

silliness all silliness all this [!@#%^&^] about one service is better than another

 

judge each individual coin in its holder on its own merits

 

are there fantastic great coins in ngc and pcgs holders yes yes

 

are there coins that i just do not like in ngc and pcgs holders OF COURSE

 

buy the coin not the holder

 

 

if i see a coin in an ngc/pcgs holder that is within my specialities and i LIKE the coin and it is at least what the grade says on the holder and if the person is selling THE COIN and it is a good value TO me weather i buy it or just look at it

then for me it is a good coin

 

even better if the coin in the holder is higher grade and better eye appeal than the graded on the holder

 

 

michael