Advice on buying US Gold coins...

[coinman_23885]

Regarding MS63-level (and up) classic gold $1-$2.5-$5, the bulk of their pricing is due to numismatic value. Bullion gold fluctuations will affect these a bit, but not enough to worry about IMO.

 

I disagree with you. Generic gold is dead. Whether this is due to the poor economy or the price of gold (speculation may have driven up the prices on generic gold in higher grades when the prices were lower), I don't think anyone can state with any reasonable level of certainty. For example, I recently sold a Type III Indian Princess Gold Dollar in MS64 (NGC certified). Before the recent surge in gold prices, the same date and mint mark was selling for around $1300. When I purchased the coin about 8 months ago, the average selling price was $960, and now the prices are selling for $920 or below. I paid around $960 and ended selling the coin for $900 (I think). I recommend staying away from most generic gold (especially the more modern pieces - many of the 20th century common dates and their slightly older late 19th century predecessors).

[BillJones]

Generic gold is dead.

 

It is "dead" in the current market, but it won't be "dead" forever. I believe that any genuine U.S. gold coin, with the possible exception of $20 St. Gaudens pieces, in MS-63+ or better is not "generic" to me. I know how hard it is find pieces with good luster and minimum of marks. Sadly a fair amount of slabbed gold that is out there is over graded.

 

At the last winter FUN show I went shopping for upgrades from my $5 with motto Liberty and my Type I one dollar gold piece in MS-65 or better. I already had MS-64 graded coins. It took me a long to time to find a $5 Liberty in true MS-65. Oh there were plenty of MS-65 graded pieces on the floor, including a number of them with CAC stickers, but they were no better or not as good as the MS-64 coin I already had. Finally I bought one from Heritage in an NGC MS-65 that was "all there" at much lower price that some of the other offers I had had.

 

As for the Type I gold dollar, I didn't find anything that was as good or better than the MS-64 I alreadly had. So I'm still looking.

 

Part of the trouble with "generic gold" is that a lot of it is over graded. That's one reason why it is not selling.

 

In addition you also have concerns about the price of gold bullion. If the Federal can get it fiscal act together, which is a very big "IF." Bullion prices will drop just like they did in the early 1980s after that bull gold market. If you are holding lower grade generic gold, you will be holding the bag. If you have rare dates, you will be at least a little better off.

[mintcollector]

I thank everyone for their advice. I actually do have a five dollar gold coin in mind. Rest assured, I only would ever consider a NGC or PCGS graded coin. This particular coin is CAC certified as well. I will see how it goes and then report back if I am going to take the 'plunge' or not. I must admit, this thread truly educated me and for that alone I thank all of you!

 

Sincerely yours,

 

'mint'

[jom]

I thank everyone for their advice. I actually do have a five dollar gold coin in mind. Rest assured, I only would ever consider a NGC or PCGS graded coin. This particular coin is CAC certified as well. I will see how it goes and then report back if I am going to take the 'plunge' or not. I must admit, this thread truly educated me and for that alone I thank all of you!

 

Sincerely yours,

 

'mint'

 

See if you can get a photo before you buy and let everyone look at it!

 

jom

[mkman123]

I don't have big pockets so you can say I buy generic gold however i like it and that's all that matters.....the op should enjoy coin collecting vs investment

[Desert Gold]

I would suggest that you buy the gold coins that I'm not interested in so I don't have to bid against you - ha ha.

[comicdonna]

I would suggest that you buy the gold coins that I'm not interested in so I don't have to bid against you - ha ha.

It's too bad there isn't a thread where everyone posted the coin (s) they were bidding on, and what their maximum bid was.

[coinman_23885]

Mark, let me turn the question a little? How do you guys (the experienced dealers and/or graders) spot these puttied coins? Sometimes all that I can see is a little surface mismatch or smudge. I realise that some get into holders and it are very tricky to spot often. Not putting you on the spot, more a learning process.

 

I don't know of a way to detect the putty, unless/until it has changed its appearance/color. Once that has occurred, it manifests itself to varying degres, as hazy, discolored areas on a coin. It can more easily be detected by tilting the coin and viewing it at different angles and distances.

 

I wonder if a microscope would make a difference?

 

Wouldn't PCGS's mass spectroscopy (i.e. the "sniffer") detect puttying? I realize this would limit the market for existing coins to PCGS Secure Plus holders, but it is a thought...

[coinman_23885]

I would suggest that you buy the gold coins that I'm not interested in so I don't have to bid against you - ha ha.

It's too bad there isn't a thread where everyone posted the coin (s) they were bidding on, and what their maximum bid was.

 

I think your thread idea sounds interesting. I would certainly start sniping more thereafter as eBay's mixing of the letters of the user ID isn't exactly fool proof.

[Bruceswar]

Personally I would stay away from gold at this point. Prices are too high due to gold being up. I buy and sell it daily, but yet I own only 1 piece of gold. Tells you what I think of it.

[MarkFeld]

Personally I would stay away from gold at this point. Prices are too high due to gold being up. I buy and sell it daily, but yet I own only 1 piece of gold. Tells you what I think of it.

 

Many generic gold coins are selling for lower premiums now, than they have for a long time.

[mintcollector]

Can someone define 'generic gold' for me? I see some of these coins have really low mintages (especially the $5 gold dollars). Are these really considered generic in grades above MS 63? I appreciate the advice.

 

Kindly,

 

'mint'

[jom]

Can someone define 'generic gold' for me? I see some of these coins have really low mintages (especially the $5 gold dollars). Are these really considered generic in grades above MS 63? I appreciate the advice.

 

Kindly,

 

'mint'

 

Some of the terminology can be confusing. I'll let other define "generic" for you but I can say that just because a coin has a "low mintage" doesn't mean that it's rare by any means. Sometimes those were saved over the years and the coins ended up today being very available in the market place.

 

jom

[jom]

Personally I would stay away from gold at this point. Prices are too high due to gold being up. I buy and sell it daily, but yet I own only 1 piece of gold. Tells you what I think of it.

 

Many generic gold coins are selling for lower premiums now, than they have for a long time.

 

OK, are you guys talking the same thing here?

 

Mark says that generic gold is selling for a lower premium now. I assume he meant lower premium to spot gold, no?

 

On the other hand Bruce says that gold (spot gold I assume) overall is way overpriced.

 

I don't think those are the same issues, are they? If they are, I'm confused as usual.

 

jom

[Kamillion]

i'd wait a couple months on buying gold. i believe the price is going to come down a couple hundred dollars or so.

[mintcollector]

i'd wait a couple months on buying gold. i believe the price is going to come down a couple hundred dollars or so.

 

Keep in mind that I am not asking about gold bullion. I am referring to classic high grade gold coins that have a lot of numismatic value.

 

Wouldn't these coins not have as much direct relation to the price of gold, like bullion does?

[DaveG]

Let's talk about "generic gold" and "numismatic premium".

 

Generic gold are the most common gold coins (in terms of date, mintmark and grade). "Semi-numismatic" coins are not the most common, but are pretty common.

 

Generic gold coins have the smallest numismatic premium (the difference between the bullion value of the coin and the price a collector will pay).

 

The numismatic premium of a coin will fluctuate as a result of the supply/demand for the coin in question.

 

The mintage of a "classic" (pre-1934) US gold coin can bear very little resemblance to its rarity today because so many US gold coins have been melted over the years.

 

Generally speaking, pre-Civil War US gold coins actually circulated and were generally returned to the Mint for recoining when they began to show noticable circulation wear - say low-XF or high-VF. Post-1878 US gold coins didn't circulate much, so many of them were in bank vaults when gold was demonetized in 1933 and were recalled and subsequently melted.

 

Much of the post-1878 US gold coins available to collectors today were stored in bank vaults in Europe and South America; many of those coins didn't circulate and, if they weren't moved around too much, don't have many bag marks and might very well grade MS-63 or higher today.

 

Just because a gold coin is graded MS-63, doesn't mean it is not Generic or Semi-Numismatic.

 

Most collectors don't collect gold coins by date and mintmark, so a number of coins sell for about the same price, even if their absolute rarity might be very different.

 

If you look at the population reports published by NGC or PCGS or look at a price guide such as the Coin Dealer's Newsletter (Gray Sheet), you can see the sometimes large numbers of coins that have been graded and sell for similar prices.

 

For example, let's pretend that 3,000 1902-S half eagles have been graded MS-63 by PCGS. You look in the Gray Sheet and see that its Bid price is $2,000. You also see that 1,500 1902 half eagles have been graded MS-63 by PCGS and its Bid price is $2,000 (even though it is twice as "rare" as a 1902-S half eagle in the same grade).

 

Because few collectors collect by date and mintmark, the demand for these two coins consists of people looking for MS-63 half eagles. As a result, the numismatic premium (and therefore the price) of this coin may fluctuate widely depending on whether many people are buying MS-63 half eagles or few are.

 

edited to add: It often happens that many people are looking for MS-63 half eagles when the price of gold is rising and then few people are looking for MS-63 half eagles when the price of gold is falling.

 

also edited for clarity

[comicdonna]

[Oldtrader3]

I find this generic and "premium numismatic" gold a mixing as the same thing to be metaphorical at best and temporary at worst. The priliminary work up which was done on this posting establishes that there really is two distinct market points for most gold generic versus premium classic gold coins, based on date and MM, plus or course collector interest. This split market has always existed at least since my personal collecting memories back to 1965.

 

Presently, the inertia of metals prices has blurred this distinction somewhat and made it apparent, in an obscure sort of way, that there is less difference in generic and "numismatic premium" gold classic coins. I would not bet any money that this will be true in the future.

 

My feeling is that coincident market is a market device or even a trading convenience that will settle back into distinct market segments for both catagories whenever the metals markets mature and stabilise at whatever level. It has always been thus.