POLL: Do you think there is too much emphasis on profit in coins today?

[lclugza]

Do you think there is too much emphasis on the profit motive in numismatics today?

 

Personally, it seems to me there is too much emphasis on profit, not enough on fun. I have read allegations that greedy speculators have been buying up multiples of certain coins, hoping for big profits a short time later. I think this practice hurts true collectors by keeping the coins out of their hands, or forcing them to pay exhorbiant prices for the coins. And everywhere on the PCGS and NGC boards there seem to be posts about someone’s “score” when he got an “upgrade” (i.e., overgrade), and how someone paid thousands for some fairly recent coin. Do you wish there was much less emphasis on profit, and more emphasis on fun, or do you feel otherwise? (I would appreciate it if you would tell why you feel the way you do.)

[TomB]

I actually don't believe there is too much emphasis on profits, however, I would be very happy to see the entire price structure shift downward as that would make the hobby/industry a bit more affordable for me.

[michael]

yes

 

always has been always will be that is why ther is a market

 

 

i see many advanced collectors 1960's to 1980's and it is always about what they can steal or pick/rip from someone or able to bury someone in something to now what holder at what grade and designation they can get it into no matter if they agree with the holder incert or not and sell it even before they got it back from the services

 

coins is capitalism in its rawest form

 

again the above is just my experiences with coins on a daily basis since 1967

 

michael

[jom]

I agree with the original point. Sort of. I think there is too much emphisis on GRADING, not necessarily on profit. Specifically, TP grading and how "over graded" a coin is OR what label a coin has or some other Registry non-sense. Just read the message boards (the PCGS boards mainly) and see what people are talking about. TPGing is pretty much the biggest subject on there. With the possible exception of "Ebay scam" threads, of course...

 

jom

[MrDan-migration]

My wife and I really enjoy the heck out of acquiring coins. We love really old coins. I prefer higher grade purely because the devices are easier to see and enjoy, my wife like higher grades too but for her it's just the thought of who held this coin back in the day, and what did they use it for. There’s a lot of history in those coins. I am not going to tell you that we don't enjoy buying a real cool coin dirt cheap. The coins will usually gain in value over decades. If anyone wants to buy a coin from me and offers more than I paid and I am not attached to it. Then whoopee!! But it wouldn't be fun if all you were worried about was Profit.

 

 

 

I love and am addicted to the hunt.

 

Dan

[Hoot]

I think that there's too much emphasis on profit when it comes to people settling down and enjoying the hobby. Too many people enter the hobby with profit in mind and not enough of a sense of simply making it a fun adventure or pursuit. They also keep themselves ignorant by not looking beyond the issues of grade (what's my coin worth?) and understanding the manufacture processes, the translations of art, the lineage of artists and Mint personnel, the history of design, devices and words, their country's history and the world's history of coins and relationships with precious metals, , the provenance of their coins (real or imagined), their personal role as temporary keepers of the art, etc., etc, etc.

 

Some big examples that really irritate me: (1) the recent sale of the Olsen example of the 1913 nickel to a professed investor. Granted, the person has no obligation but to pay the tab, but this kind of pure investor speculation really gets under my skin. (2) The sale of the 1933 Saint to a wannabe collector/casual collector. (That's what I last heard, so correct me if I'm wrong.) Again, the sale was not to an ardent fan of the series or even to a wealthy dealer who had true devotion and understanding of the coin, its rich history and how it fit into the exquisite series. And also, the person only had to have the money to possess this fancy bauble.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really don't begrudge the wealthy, and besides, wealth is relative. There are some fairly wealthy folks who come around these boards, but their devotion to the hobby is immense and they make it a better hobby for everyone by their efforts. I admire that quite a bit.

 

One last point... The registry can be fun and good, but the biggest drawback to it is that it has caused so many folks to enter the hobby who only care about competition and not an iota about the pleasures of "living in the hobby." And now, well for a while, we have people building registry sets for the single-minded purpose of profit. That irritates the begeezes out of me.

 

Bottom line is that I agree with the premise that the hobby is plagued with too much emphasis on profit. I don't begrudge anybody for making a profit while participating in the hobby, but I sure would like to see more participation.

 

Hoot

[RJ-migration]

Great question! And the responses, oh vay, the responses. Words like "greed", "irritate", and "wannabe" kind of leap out at you. Folks, if these coins we're talking about weren't extremely rare and therefore valuable and potentially profitable there isn't a soul out there who would even bother to contribute their opinion let alone take pains to differentiate between bisons with 3 legs instead of 4 on the reverse of a lousy nickel. The quest for these coins takes mulla and lots of it. The competitive nature of the registry is very, very good for the hobby simply because it demonstrates pride of ownership. I don't collect art but I can understand why someone else might pay, what was it, $73,000,000 for a Picasso last month. I understand because I, too, collect and so do you guys; every last one of you and nobody minds telling every other collector in this forum what coins he's got. Take away the potential profit and the knowledge it takes to buy the right coin and we all may as well start collecting dead butterfly's. BTW, if some wealthy newby to the hobby wants to ring in his collection beginning with a 1933 double eagle, I say let the bucks fly! Even he's good for the hobby if drawing attention to it brings more people to it.

 

IMHO,

RJ

[Hoot]

Great ideas RJ.

 

Take away the potential profit and the knowledge it takes to buy the right coin and we all may as well start collecting dead butterfly's.

 

It isn't a matter of the profit potential that I object to, it's the exploitations by non-collectors that bug me. And the fact of the matter is that I'd be right here, in this hobby, without the dollar signs hanging all over it. The knowledge is what makes this hobby great, not the strict ownership, and definitely not the profit. But don't get me wrong, as I do not begrudge any collector his/her profit when the time rolls around. It's exploitation without contribution that gets me all hot and bothered.

 

As for the registry - I agree in its overall contribution of goodness to the hobby. Rather have it than not. But I dislike - immensely - those who use it as a tool for profiteering. There have been a number of sets built that were done so purely for the profit sake. No write-ups with the set and coins, no pictures, just a rank. What BS. (And to boot, many #1 registry sets don't come close to what's out there in the best collections.)

 

I'll give you a great example of someone who has built a finest all-time registry set (and probably the finest set of all time for the category), and will likely make money on it in the long-haul, but who has contributed tremendously to the hobby - TradollarNut and the Legend collection of Trade Dollars. Unbelievable set. He/they will sell it for a profit. GREAT! TDN's contributions to this hobby make him a very deserving soul. That's how the registry should work.

 

Hoot

 

p.s. There's all kinds of profit to be made collecting dead butterflies.

[TomB]

I realize that I've replied already, however, Hoot wrote some intriguing ideas that I wanted to touch upon. Of course, before I could write anything, he went ahead and wrote more. So, let's just stick with the first Hoot tome, for now.

 

The way I read Hoot, Vol I is not only through the voice of a person who has passion for the hobby/industry, but also one who feels ownership of it. Not ownership in a negative sense, rather, ownership in a protective, nurturing sense. I believe that folks who share Hoot's vision are very good for the long-term health of numismatics, however, they run the risk of appearing to dictate the terms of the hobby/industry. I write this carefully after reflecting on the content of the first paragraph of Hoot, Vol I and I have to state that not only do I agree with his sentiments, I also occasionally fall short of his standards. Of the listed vices/virtues, I can state that I don't fall into the trap of grade-only vision, and I also am always aware of our temporary caretaker position for these pieces. The other points, well...I'm not always as well versed as I'd like to be.

 

The examples of the 1913 Liberty nickel and 1933 double eagle roll off my back as these are not true numismatic issues in the sense of what I understand and accept. These are tokens of limited importance that the general public, and many members of our hobby/industry, use as standards of excellence. To me, this is misguided and fails to understand them for what they are. Therefore, I subscribe to the "greater fool" theory and believe that those who would spend the money on these stand at the pinnacle. Of course, they will also likely make money on the pieces, and in most people's books that would negate their "greater fool" status, but I can't help but believe that if this is the extent that someone is involved in the hobby/industry then they really aren't deeply involved in numismatics.

 

Of course, those astute readers who have read Plato's Allegory of the Den will be thinking that I am also narrowly defining the acceptable limits of proper or rewarding immersion in our hobby/industry. I cannot make out clearly the limits of reality since what I view as reality is really only the shadow of light on the wall. That's where I have to confess that I have no retort, my own definitions of what are correct in numismatics can serve to limit how others enjoy the hobby/industry. A conundrum? You bet, and I'm not too happy about how this unfolds.

 

Perhaps this was all grey and really a crummy post that has no meaning to anyone but myself, but I think the take home message is the Allegory of the Den inspired TomB Corollary to Hoot, Vol I and that is; enjoy yourself while you buy what you like with money you can afford to lose.

[Hoot]

That's where I have to confess that I have no retort, my own definitions of what are correct in numismatics can serve to limit how others enjoy the hobby/industry. A conundrum? You bet, and I'm not too happy about how this unfolds.

 

Welcome to your entropic universe, Tom! And if you will, this implies a finite set with a limited number of outcomes, such that the probability of any arrangement can be calculated. A vast but limited interruption of fluid thought.

 

I agree with you about the 1913 nickel and the 1933 Saint. Probably poor examples, but they lie so far at the extreme that most folks can recognize them, thus my illustration. I think the better example is the participation in the registries for the pure sake of profit. In that, even pure competativeness is violated. And yes, it greets us all with a philosophical dilemna. However, I remain in the stand that profiteering contributes nothing to the hobby, and pure competition contributes very little, and nothing that I can see as redeeming when it comes to enriching the lives of others. Maybe, only maybe, can we say that the competition helps some folks set goals, but unless these goals are interpreted purely personally, they will provide a person and the hobby only false gain. I suppose I've revealed more of myself than I should here, but I'm not afraid of differing perspectives.

 

Hoot

[TomB]

I suppose I've revealed more of myself than I should here, but I'm not afraid of differing perspectives.

Don't worry about revealing too much of yourself, Hoot. After re-reading my post I found myself somewhat confused and nothing much made sense.

 

Actually, I think you and I agree on most issues within this thread, we just might not express our journies to these issues the same way.

[RJ-migration]

Hoot and Tom,

Listen guys, the poll question is not that complicated and certainly does not deserve elevation to the level of eriadition forthcoming from your previous posts. Sure, there's an air of snobishness that can eminate from decades of absorption of minutiae but herein lies the essence of the premise if I may be so bold to restate:

 

Does profit help or hurt our hobby?

 

I happen to believe it does not since money, like beautiful women both make the world go round. Can we at least keep it as simple as that? And please, lose all the funny faces within your explanations. Shakespeare and Walter Winchell didn't need them and neither do we...

 

Your Humble Servant,

RJ

[TomB]

If you read the entire thread, RJ, you would know my answer to that as it was the first response.

 

As for Shakespeare, he had a habit of including this emoticon in his comedies, and all of them ended with a quaint . Now, I'm off to ruminate about my next post.

 

[RJ-migration]

Tom,

If I may, Shakespeare's plays all ended in rhyming couplets of iambic pentameter, thus:

 

Oh what tangled webs we weave

In our practice to deceive.

 

No funny face, just unillustrated truth. But let me not stray from the "thread". It's just at my age I can only tolerate so many distractions myself before "old-timers disease" sets in. So, Tom and Hoot and everyone, funny-face away...I'll get over it.

 

And you're correct, your first response was straighforward and concise. The second was rambling but, hey, this forum's a lot cheaper than paying for a shrink!

 

Pax Vobiscum,

RJ

[TomB]

Sorry, RJ, I was feeling a little punchy. Normally, I don't incorporate so many of those little faces.

 

Have you ever gone to see a modern interpretation of one of Shakespeare's works? My wife and I have gone to Drew University in NJ to see several of them and I really like them (the modern interpretations) while she does not care for them very much.

[cladking]

To the degree that someone engages in the single minded pursuit of profit there is no gain to the hobby. There is also rarely much gain to the pursuer. Indeed, the single minded pursuit of profit can cause some harm to the hobby though it would normally be indirect damage such as the creation of imbalances and inequities.

 

In the real world there are few who could be said truly to pursue much of anything for a single and simple reason other than perhaps breakfast. Generally people have many reasons they do things and buying or hoarding coins fits this better than most endeavors. Many "investors" start out primarily for profit but get hooked and collect coins.

 

Most collectors have at least some thought of making a profit on at least some of their coins.

 

People are as complicated as nature itself, and it can be impossible in even the simple cases to separate a man from his deeds or the good one does from the harm. Most all of us are merely trying to do what we think is right. and to many profit is an important force. While we have a right to judge this force, it is difficult to quantify and remains ephemeral.

[jom]

To the degree that someone engages in the single minded pursuit of profit there is no gain to the hobby

 

The classic example of this is the "crack out" artist. This type of "dealer" serves absolutely NO other purpose than to gain in profit. It does the coins no good nor the end user (collector).

 

jom

[Hoot]

Hoot and Tom,

Listen guys, the poll question is not that complicated and certainly does not deserve elevation to the level of eriadition forthcoming from your previous posts. Sure, there's an air of snobishness that can eminate from decades of absorption of minutiae but herein lies the essence of the premise if I may be so bold to restate:

 

Does profit help or hurt our hobby?

 

I happen to believe it does not since money, like beautiful women both make the world go round. Can we at least keep it as simple as that? And please, lose all the funny faces within your explanations. Shakespeare and Walter Winchell didn't need them and neither do we...

 

Your Humble Servant,

RJ

 

Aw heck, RJ. You're taking all the fun out of a good philosophical debate. Besides, I beg to differ - the question is simply loaded! And you've gotta remember that Tom and I would simply hate each other if it weren't for all those emoticons.

 

cladking - superb!

 

Hoot

[Oldtrader3]

I must be living on Mars!! Not being a dealer, I never was able to make sustainable profit in this hobby and pretty much quit trying many years ago. Every time that I tried, the rules changed (slabs, gradeflation, market deflation, reflation, conflagration, whatever!).

 

So, I just kept buying what I liked at grades that I could scape enough money together for. I guess now that I probably could make a profit on many of my coins, but they certainly were not purchased with that in mind!

 

[RJ-migration]

I must be living on Mars!! Not being a dealer, I never was able to make sustainable profit in this hobby and pretty much quit trying many years ago. Every time that I tried, the rules changed (slabs, gradeflation, market deflation, reflation, conflagration, whatever!).

 

So, I just kept buying what I liked at grades that I could scape enough money together for. I guess now that I probably could make a profit on many of my coins, but they certainly were not purchased with that in mind!

 

Good Point, "Old". The vast majority of us are simply collectors, free from the profit motive whether we want to be or not. Afterall, it's difficult, as a collector to make a profit when buying at "ask" and selling at "bid". Several months/years must usually pass while you tie up your money in numismatic inventory instead of investing it at 5% or even 10%, hoping for inflation to kick in. The only other way to eek out a short term profit is to specialize and gain enough knowledge to find the occasional undergraded coin. Then again, ever lurking in the recesses of all our minds is the ususally unfulfilled dream of hitting it big, you know, like when we were kids and used to search our paper route change for the 1955 double die penny. Who was it that said, "The child is the father to the man"? So there you have it, the profit motive is simply a child-like quality dangerous only in the hands of an adult!

RJ

[DonHeath]

RJ,

 

Pretty good thread so far. Before I drift off in my own partially relevant rant, I'll answer your question. No, I don't think the focus on profit is excessive. I think the individuals who are intensely focused on profit are generally business people doing exactly what they should, if they do so with integrity. Unfortunately, it's also very boring.

 

I think the point Hoot made is lost on many in the hobby. The experience is more important than the profit, or the coins. When I think about my most pleasureable time spent in the hobby, most of the memories have nothing to do with coins I own, and rarely have much to do with profit. It has more to do with the afternoons talking to friends. It's exciting to find a coin you've been searching for, but it wouldn't be much fun in a vacuum. I sat and talked at length with an old collector (now deceased) a few years ago who had once owned 5 1943 Lincolns struck on silver planchets. He had newspaper clippings. He recollected how Breen had called him to purchase one. His eyes practically glowed while telling the story. He didn't own the coins when I met him, and had sold them years before. It didn't diminish his excitement. The coins are fun, but they are a means, not an end. JMO

[Leothelion]

To the degree that someone engages in the single minded pursuit of profit there is no gain to the hobby. There is also rarely much gain to the pursuer. Indeed, the single minded pursuit of profit can cause some harm to the hobby though it would normally be indirect damage such as the creation of imbalances and inequities.

 

Cladking!

Would you mind pointing a finger or two at someone somewhere in that statement! Very well put, although it may have flown right over some heads here and beyond!

 

 

RJ, Pretty good thread so far. Before I drift off in my own partially relevant rant,

Don, LMAO

 

Leo