American Silver Eagles - Coins or Bullion? posted by MV Coins

[CSJournals-migration]

Glad to see all you American Silver Eagle (ASE) Folks had Fun with my last Post.

 

I was curious to see if the American Silver Eagle (ASE) folks could find anything interesting to say in response to my last post. A few comments actually got the point that the U.S. Mint is churning out recycled images from the past to sell mountains of Silver and Gold bullion in the form of coins. The quality of the U.S. Mint ASE and American Eagle Gold coins is such that nearly all are Mint State or Proof 69/70 and nearly all the Proof coins are Deep Cameo / Ultra Cameo. In truth there isn't much difference with these bullion coins for any collector to find. The U.S. Mint is also churning our Hundreds of Thousands of Proof bullion coins and Millions of Mint State ASE bullion coins in most years. All are being saved and/or collected. As such there are few really rare bullion coins and folks end up focusing on collecting labels such as 25th Anniversary.

 

The whole reason ASE coins were created in the first place was to sell off excess Silver in the U.S Government's National Defense Stockpile and help fund the U.S. Government. The opinion was that bullion coins would sell better than simple bars of bullion silver. The U.S. mint then recycled the Liberty Walking obverse as it was a popular and the thought was it would help in the marketing. This was obviously successful based on some of the responses to my last post. This initial sell off of silver was accomplished around 2002. Congress then authorized the U.S. Treasury to simply buy silver on the open market and keep selling this bullion to the public in the form of coins in whatever quantity they wished.

 

So collecting ASE does help the U.S. silver mining industry and it does help fund the U.S. Government and those are good things, but is it really coin collecting or buying bullion in the form of coins instead of bars? I leave that for you to decide.

 

See more journals by MV Coins

[mikew148]

So am I to assume that you feel a 25th Anniversary Set, 2011 Reverse Proof ASE, in Proof 70, with a mintage limit of 100,000, is the same thing as a one ounce piece of "excess" silver?

 

If you have any left I will buy all you have for spot plus $1! Surely you would like to make the $1 profit as these coins are just "excess" silver. Right?

 

Oh that's right....I forgot. You don't like these coins you just buy up as many as you can so you can make profits selling them off to people who really do appreciate them for the beautiful pieces of work that they are.

 

I feel that your opinions and approach towards the entire ASE coin collecting community is off base...and remember...I'm not angry....it's just my opinion.

 

 

 

[Six Mile Rick]

MV,

You can call it as you see it. I think the 2011 sets were a great success (for NGC and Collectors Society) and see that there are guite a few new members to the community in the last two weeks. I have sent messages to a couple myself to help them. It took the bullion coins "as you call them", I call them "25th Aniv. Silver Eagle sets" needing graded to get them to join. Soon they will move on and collect other sets of thier passion - pennies,nickles,dimes and so on.

 

I would like to welcome all new members with this message and warn them not to take all posts seriously.*WARNING* Some members in this club are running on 50% or less of normal brain cell functions.There are others here that have a vast amount of numismatic knowledge that will come in handy when you need it.

 

HAPPY COIN COLLECTING

 

[CBC]

"The whole reason ASE coins were created in the first place was to sell off excess Silver"

 

You could say the same about Morgan dollars. In fact, every US silver or gold coin ever produced prior to 1964 was simply a vehicle to monetize bullion. The "official" price of silver and gold was set by the US government, and silver and gold coins were produced with the equivalent amounts of these metals in the alloy.

 

As for "recycled images from the past", how about some of the ancient images on current coins? There has been no change in the Roosevelt dime design in 66 years. Until the Statehood series, Washington quarters had a 66-year run of monotony interrupted b ytwo years of bicentennial variation. Jefferson and Monticello were unchanged for over 60 years until Lewis and Clark came along. Lincoln had one design change in the first 100 years. The newest member of the set, JFK, is pushing 50 with no changes except for the two-year bicentennial design.

 

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that you couldn't understand why people collect Eagles instead of the original Walking Liberty half dollars. I think lots of us collect both - my Walker sets are int he top 12 in the NGC Registry. I also collect Eagles because I like the design.

 

Some people are fanatics about FT Roosevelt dimes or FS Jeffersons. I don't have much interest in either. To each his own; collect what you like and enjoy what you collect.

[chryslerfan]

Gee, I just think they are beautiful coins. I started out investing for when the dollar finally collapses, but I fell in love with the coins and the hobby. They are more than silver to me. They are a hobby, a conversation stater, a way to meet new people and friends, and something I get to share with my grandchildren. Excess silver? The demand for silver already outpaces recovery and its only getting worse as we upgrade the electric grid with silver wire transformers. So, yes its an investment if you want to look at it that way, I prefer coin collecting though. Investing is very stressful...Coin collecting is quite the opposite. In my humble little opinion.

 

Sixmilerick...I haven't forgot you, my sets are in quality control.

[Broke-Daddy]

MV is correct, the eagles are Both Bullion-Coins. The US silver & gold stockpiles are being sold off to fund the US imperial "whatevers". The end result is now the inflation of our money and economy that was once backed up by these metals, is now mostly in the hands of China and other countries. Yes the eagles, in all their different versions and glory have created an artificial life of their own, with collectors and vendors, but when you get down to the elements outside of the hobby, you're left with Only the intrinsic value (like an old gold chain or ring)of an ounce of metal. My a-hle son once took a Mint Tube of eagles(at that time they were about $8 each), and used them at the corner store as DOLLARS!!!

 

For anyone in doubt, let's assume your collection of silver eagles was stolen, and the crook(some punk, with no knowledge of the market) takes a reverse proof to a jewelry store or gold/sivler trader to get cash- the coin will be weighed, and he'll be offered the Spot Price minus their fee, and get about $25-29 for each coin. Of course the shop owner will flip it for the actual collectors value.

 

Total up all the silver, gold, and platinum the US govt. has sold off in coins & bars since the 80's, then add in about double that amount that was allocated for clandestine uses, now Triple(or fourple) That sub-total for what we're using to pay-off the Interest on our foreign loans from China & other countries(they demand payment in preciuos metal-not paper), and subtract the grand total from what is supposed to be in Ft Knox, and the Fed. Reserve Banks to give backbone to our economy.

 

I love the hobby, especially the silver eagles as much as anyone, BUT At some point the government Has to stop selling off our stockpiles- hopefully before they're completely depleted. Otherwise our money will be rendered completely worthless, and this country will be owned by China!

 

 

[Mokiechan]

MV Coins,

You're just having lots of fun rattling the old cage aren't you.

 

Later,

Malcolm

 

 

[jackson64]

Without being lured into an animated discussion--I'll simply answer your question directly.

 

The answer is BOTH. As for regular issue ASE bullion coins--they are bullion coins and I collect them as such. I have almost 1,000 total of various mixed-date tubes and have never purchased one in a slab or paid to have one slabbed.

Before all of the bullion collectors get riled up--I'm all for collecting anything that you like. One of each year of issue of these bullion pieces is a fine collection. I still have 2-3 giant boxes of old beer cans I collected in my youth sitting in my attic. I once collected matchbox cars, baseball cards..and on and on...collecting is a hobby and unless it crosses the line into obsessiveness or hoarding--collect, labels, different slabs, or even gold teeth fillings if you like, whatever floats your boat--collections are for personal enjoyment. I don't care if you like what I collect and I don't expect you to care how I feel about your collecting interests.

 

Sorry for the ramble but I did say, "BOTH", so I would be remiss if I did not address the reason why they are also coins-instead of bullion. This reason would be the issuance of Proofs -which have always been seperately struck, specially minted coins for collectors which have never been intended for circulation. To call the ASE proofs "bullion" could be equated with calling any and all proofs-including classic Seated and Barber coinage- as bullion.

So MV, if you are trying to make a case that all ASE's produced are nothing but bullion--then your attempt is an abject failure. However, unlike many of my dear friends here at this Collectors-Society, I grudgingly would have to concede the point about the bullion/.999 troy ounce issues.

 

Of course, the anniversary sets are without a doubt by a reasonable individual, a coveted collectible and attractive set that would make a wonderful heirloom for posterity.

 

 

[jburdt-migration]

MV

aren't all "coins" just an image stamped on a piece of metal? Wouldn't buying a copper penny just be buying copper in the form of a coin instead of buying a copper bar? You could make you case with any coin even the coins in your collection.

[CHABSENTIA]

Glad to see all you American Silver Eagle (ASE) Folks had Fun with my last Post.

 

I was curious to see if the American Silver Eagle (ASE) folks could find anything interesting to say in response to my last post. A few comments actually got the point that the U.S. Mint is churning out recycled images from the past to sell mountains of Silver and Gold bullion in the form of coins. The quality of the U.S. Mint ASE and American Eagle Gold coins is such that nearly all are Mint State or Proof 69/70 and nearly all the Proof coins are Deep Cameo / Ultra Cameo. In truth there isn't much difference with these bullion coins for any collector to find. The U.S. Mint is also churning our Hundreds of Thousands of Proof bullion coins and Millions of Mint State ASE bullion coins in most years. All are being saved and/or collected. As such there are few really rare bullion coins and folks end up focusing on collecting labels such as 25th Anniversary.

 

The whole reason ASE coins were created in the first place was to sell off excess Silver in the U.S Government's National Defense Stockpile and help fund the U.S. Government. The opinion was that bullion coins would sell better than simple bars of bullion silver. The U.S. mint then recycled the Liberty Walking obverse as it was a popular and the thought was it would help in the marketing. This was obviously successful based on some of the responses to my last post. This initial sell off of silver was accomplished around 2002. Congress then authorized the U.S. Treasury to simply buy silver on the open market and keep selling this bullion to the public in the form of coins in whatever quantity they wished.

 

So collecting ASE does help the U.S. silver mining industry and it does help fund the U.S. Government and those are good things, but is it really coin collecting or buying bullion in the form of coins instead of bars? I leave that for you to decide.

 

See more journals by MV Coins

I originally started buying the series in 1986 because I thought Silver would go up in price. I also thought that this was the case with Gold,however. Gold was much more expensive and this was a way to get one ounce of Silver without being just a bar. Historically the ratio of silver to gold was about 40 to one and it was way above this. Silver is a Indutrial metal and is used in everything from Cellphones to 3D screens.The Majority of the rise in the annual coins with a mintage of millions has been mainly due to the rise in price of Silver.I would have liked to have been able to get the 25th Anniversary set from the U.S. Mint to keep my sets complete. .This did not happen and I would have sold the sets if I did not think the Price of Silver was going higher. Gold will go to $2000 an ounce if the present trends continue. Possibly higher . Even at its present ratio and a pretty constant ratio of 40 to one until Silver is 50 when Gold is 2000.

[CHABSENTIA]

So am I to assume that you feel a 25th Anniversary Set, 2011 Reverse Proof ASE, in Proof 70, with a mintage limit of 100,000, is the same thing as a one ounce piece of "excess" silver?

 

If you have any left I will buy all you have for spot plus $1! Surely you would like to make the $1 profit as these coins are just "excess" silver. Right?

 

Oh that's right....I forgot. You don't like these coins you just buy up as many as you can so you can make profits selling them off to people who really do appreciate them for the beautiful pieces of work that they are.

 

I feel that your opinions and approach towards the entire ASE coin collecting community is off base...and remember...I'm not angry....it's just my opinion.

 

 

 

As I mentioned earlier the annual A.S.E. in the mintage of millions has not price rise except for Silver. The Anniversary sets are twenty and twenty five years. Even the 2006 Reverse proof in PF70 has gone from $750 to $475 which is a drop of 41%. The other tow coins have stayed the same so a set is now worth about $800. They sold for $100 so eight fold. The 25th Anniversary went for $300 so eight fold is $2400. Sets on E bay are going for $2500 in 69 and $4500 in 70. It remains to be seen how much more they will appreciate down the line as sets in 69 are already going for eight fold. and 70 sets for 15 fold.

 

The one thing in its favor is that the unsophisticated purchased the sets and opened them so a complete set with the special label is less than the 100,000 mintage whether or not the bid up prices are justified.

[CHABSENTIA]

"The whole reason ASE coins were created in the first place was to sell off excess Silver"

 

You could say the same about Morgan dollars. In fact, every US silver or gold coin ever produced prior to 1964 was simply a vehicle to monetize bullion. The "official" price of silver and gold was set by the US government, and silver and gold coins were produced with the equivalent amounts of these metals in the alloy.

 

As for "recycled images from the past", how about some of the ancient images on current coins? There has been no change in the Roosevelt dime design in 66 years. Until the Statehood series, Washington quarters had a 66-year run of monotony interrupted b ytwo years of bicentennial variation. Jefferson and Monticello were unchanged for over 60 years until Lewis and Clark came along. Lincoln had one design change in the first 100 years. The newest member of the set, JFK, is pushing 50 with no changes except for the two-year bicentennial design.

 

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that you couldn't understand why people collect Eagles instead of the original Walking Liberty half dollars. I think lots of us collect both - my Walker sets are int he top 12 in the NGC Registry. I also collect Eagles because I like the design.

 

Some people are fanatics about FT Roosevelt dimes or FS Jeffersons. I don't have much interest in either. To each his own; collect what you like and enjoy what you collect.

 

Morgan dollars are over one hundred years old. There were millions melted down with the Pittman act. The Silver Eagle in both proof and Uncirc has a mintage of millions each year and they are a 'Modern" coin.

 

The 2006 Anniversary Reverse Proof in PF70 has gone from $750 to $475 which is a 41% drop. Don't know of too many Morgans that have gone down 41% in it highest grade.

 

My last Morgan purchase was an 1880CC GSA Reverse of 78. The total mintage for this one is 125,000 which is about the same as the 100,000 on the Reverse Proof. Actually the 125,000 is total mintage and the GSA is less.

 

Which of the two coins do you think will appreciate the most in the next few years?The frenzy on this 25th anniversary set might even have set the base price too high from te start. Compare the A,S,E with the Morgan???????