If I wanted to learn more about VAMs...

[Lastufka Collection]

...which book should I pick up first?

 

I found a few different books on Amazon, just not sure which would be the most comprehensive or best place to start.

 

Any direction would be appreciated. =)

[cpm9ball]

The ONLY place to start is with the "Bible", Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars by Leroy C. Van Allen & A. George Mallis. You would also need the annual supplements if you want to bring the book fully up-to-date. These have to be ordered directly from LVA, and you can find instructions for ordering them on the VAMWorld site.

 

Chris

[Lastufka Collection]

Haha, wow, even the "101" page on VAMworld is intimidating. Maybe I'll just stick with my moderns...

[physics-fan3.14]

Honestly, I would caution you away from VAMS. They are ridiculously complicated, devilishly hard to figure out, require a microscope to even see, and they make the most ridiculous little jots and tittles into a big deal. I know several board members here love them, including Chris, and hey, to each their own. I just don't like them.

 

If you want to get into varieties that are not only easy to distinguish, but are also relatively significant, interesting, and far more collectible, I would recommend looking at early US coinage. Everything from Half Cents through Dollars are collected by variety, although dollars are much more expensive.

[cpm9ball]

To some degree, Jason is right. Yes, I like VAM's, but I don't go overboard like some of the others. Between Morgan and Peace dollars, there are more than 4000 VAM's, and in my opinion, there are many that shouldn't even be on the list.

 

I only collect the VAM's that interest me, and I do use a stereomicroscope because my eyesight is not all that good. Regardless, the Bible is an excellent resource that provides countless details about the minting process for the old cartwheels that you just won't find in any other book.

 

Chris

[RWB]

Just an opinion or three….

 

Searching for and collecting silver dollars by die variety can be a very enjoyable specialty. It can also stretch your budget since most varieties cost little more than a "plain" coin of the same date/mint.

 

Haha, wow, even the "101" page on VAMworld is intimidating.

 

The difficulty, as I see it, is that using the VAM materials results in a collection of look-alike coins that few can appreciate. There are far too many sub varieties and trivial variants, and these wash out general collector enthusiasm for the really interesting coins. Also, as the number of variations increases, the number of collectors interested in them seems to fall. Right now, VAMworld has several very dedicated people holding it together, but they have also personalized “VAMing” and irritated potential new collectors. Some of the leading VAMpires also refuse to accept that any background knowledge exists outside of the vanAllen materials.

 

Another problem with the VAMworld approach is that it is very inconsistent in what is accepted as a die variety and what is not. Several very prominent and impressive clashed die coins are excluded, while a unique edge cud (an error) is given semi-deity status.

 

All in all, get the basic vanAllen book, and look for varieties that you can see without a 20x binocular ‘scope. You can also buy the “Guide Book for Peace Dollars” (by yours truly) and see illustrations of the more visible varieties, as well as hub versions, proofs, patterns, etc.

 

[Lastufka Collection]

Hi RWB,

 

I think it would be dangerous for me to start a Morgan set. I'm a bit of a completist and with 4,000 VAMs being out there, I'd have to include them all in the set. That would be a few lifetimes of collecting. That's why I was simply looking for some more info, I had seen the VAMs mentioned here a lot, and while I had an idea, I wasn't completely sure of how many/what kind, etc existed.

 

I will check out your Peace Dollar book though, they may be a bit more manageable. Do you have copies available directly from you, or should I just go through Amazon? As a published author myself, I know my "cut" is much higher when people buy the book directly from me. =)

 

Maybe instead I'll just work on a guide to all the various die gouges, "speared", "3-legged", "arrowed", die cracked 2005 bison nickels I'm coming across while putting together my Westward Journey set. Seem to be finding quite a few mint errors, but no information about them online. I could catalog them by LEG (Lastufka Error Groups/Guide) numbers. Haha, okay, I should stop going down this path of thinking...

[skippy]

Many VAMs are interesting and fun to collect. Many of them are trivial and boring. If you get a copy of the Van Allen/Mallis book, you can look through it and decide which VAMs interest you enough to collect.

 

Another idea would be to look over the Top 100 and Hot 50 VAM lists.

 

 

[RWB]

Another idea would be to look over the Top 100 and Hot 50 VAM lists.

 

These would be great starting places, if they represented the most accessible or visible, etc. varieties. However, they are more or less arbitrary selections - at least that is how the VAMpires describe them.

 

(My long to-do list has a beginners' book on dollar varieties - kind of a pre-VAM - but that takes time to do.....)

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Personally, I hate VAMs in general. Can't stand them, despise them, and have utter disdain for the feverish pursuit of the most microscopic differences in dies that lead to voluminous writing and images and attribution guides.

 

Nonetheless, I do VAMs anyway.

 

I feel that I have to at least take a stab at some of the more popular (and easier ) ones out there when I'm cataloging dollars for clients, as I see it as part of going the "extra mile" for them. Unfortunately, the minute differences drive me batty when I'm attributing, and there are too many lousy images in the VAM references, making many attributions not worth the bother.

 

The good news is that some VAMs are a lot of fun, and of course, some are listed in the RedBook and other price guides under popular names (spitting eagle, bar tail, O/CC, etc.), so that makes it important for any cataloger to have at least some familiarity with the attribution process.

 

But yeah, overall, VAMs are not much fun for me.

[messydesk]

If you want to learn more about VAMs, start with:

 

The Attribution 101 in conjunction with asking a few beginner questions on VAMWorld as you have them. VAMWorld is free and has a fairly active discussion forum (yes, complete with a small amount of dysfunction one finds everywhere) with avid VAM collectors of all levels of expertise eager to help answer your questions and get you started. It also contains attribution information that is about as comprehensive as you could imagine.

 

The Top 100, Hot 50, and Hit List 40 Morgan dollars and Top 50 Peace dollars contain some of the more interesting of the nearly 5000 cataloged varieties. The drive behind these lists was to focus people's collecting efforts to those varieties that are actually interesting or have a premium.

 

As you get your foot in the door with VAMs, you'll develop likes and dislikes. Some people like misplaced dates, some like die breaks, some like clashes, some like Morgan dollars, some like Peace dollars, some like specific years. If you decide that VAMs are for you, consider joining the Society of Silver Dollar Collectors. We publish articles in an e-mail newsletter and have recently launched the VAM Registry, where you can register VAM sets attributed by any grading service (or my attribution service).

 

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me directly or post them on VAMWorld for other opinions.

[RWB]

Excellent suggestions, John!

[cpm9ball]

If you want to learn more about VAMs, start with:

 

The Attribution 101 in conjunction with asking a few beginner questions on VAMWorld as you have them. VAMWorld is free and has a fairly active discussion forum (yes, complete with a small amount of dysfunction one finds everywhere) with avid VAM collectors of all levels of expertise eager to help answer your questions and get you started. It also contains attribution information that is about as comprehensive as you could imagine.

 

The Top 100, Hot 50, and Hit List 40 Morgan dollars and Top 50 Peace dollars contain some of the more interesting of the nearly 5000 cataloged varieties. The drive behind these lists was to focus people's collecting efforts to those varieties that are actually interesting or have a premium.

 

As you get your foot in the door with VAMs, you'll develop likes and dislikes. Some people like misplaced dates, some like die breaks, some like clashes, some like Morgan dollars, some like Peace dollars, some like specific years. If you decide that VAMs are for you, consider joining the Society of Silver Dollar Collectors. We publish articles in an e-mail newsletter and have recently launched the VAM Registry, where you can register VAM sets attributed by any grading service (or my attribution service).

 

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me directly or post them on VAMWorld for other opinions.

 

5000 already? Either Leroy has to slow down, or you guys have to quit bugging him so much.

 

John, the only question I have is, "What e-mail newsletter?" I've been a life member of the SSDC for several years, and I don't receive any newsletter.

 

Chris

[skippy]

 

Another idea would be to look over the Top 100 and Hot 50 VAM lists.

 

 

These would be great starting places, if they represented the most accessible or visible, etc. varieties. However, they are more or less arbitrary selections - at least that is how the VAMpires describe them.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If you want to learn more about VAMs, start with:

 

...

 

The Top 100, Hot 50, and Hit List 40 Morgan dollars and Top 50 Peace dollars contain some of the more interesting of the nearly 5000 cataloged varieties. The drive behind these lists was to focus people's collecting efforts to those varieties that are actually interesting or have a premium.

 

....

 

 

Excellent suggestions, John!

 

RWB, I guess whether or not Top 100 and Hot 50 are good suggestions depends on who is making the suggestion?

[messydesk]

5000 already? Either Leroy has to slow down, or you guys have to quit bugging him so much.

And lest ye think that all of the recent discoveries are trivial in nature, there have been a few more significant surprises lately.

 

John, the only question I have is, "What e-mail newsletter?" I've been a life member of the SSDC for several years, and I don't receive any newsletter.

I see your name in the list, but perhaps I have an incorrect e-mail address.

 

[cpm9ball]

5000 already? Either Leroy has to slow down, or you guys have to quit bugging him so much.

And lest ye think that all of the recent discoveries are trivial in nature, there have been a few more significant surprises lately.

 

I've had a 93-CC since 2008 that I know is not in the list, but I keep putting off sending it to Leroy. I'm such a procrastinator.

 

Chris

[RWB]

RWB, I guess whether or not Top 100 and Hot 50 are good suggestions depends on who is making the suggestion?

 

No, it depends on your idea of "interesting" varieties. 1926 dollars with recut "GOD" are an interesting hub variety, but absent from the VAMworld. 1922 detatched and connected olive branch varieties are also hubs and much more interesting to me than the "umteenth" die scratch. A collapsed die is, to me, much more interesting than a unique cud (unless for its curiosity aspect).

 

 

[zeewool]

Alan, allow me to pose a question here..... the answer might help you decide what to do.

 

 

What is the premise of a vam...... is it based on die marriages, or is it based on coins that kinda look like each other, although they are not the same die pair?

[skippy]

RWB, I guess whether or not Top 100 and Hot 50 are good suggestions depends on who is making the suggestion?

 

No, it depends on your idea of "interesting" varieties. 1926 dollars with recut "GOD" are an interesting hub variety, but absent from the VAMworld. 1922 detatched and connected olive branch varieties are also hubs and much more interesting to me than the "umteenth" die scratch. A collapsed die is, to me, much more interesting than a unique cud (unless for its curiosity aspect).

 

 

When I suggested Top 100/Hot 50, you said "These would be great starting places, if they represented the most accessible or visible, etc. varieties. However, they are more or less arbitrary selections - at least that is how the VAMpires describe them." When John Baumgart suggested Top 100/Hot 50, you said, "Excellent suggestions."

 

So, is Top 100/Hot 50 a good suggestion or a bad suggestion, in your opinion?

 

Underlying that, I suspect that we would find basic agreement that the vast majority of VAMs are uninteresting, while at the same time there are some spectacular varieties.

 

 

[skippy]

Alan, allow me to pose a question here..... the answer might help you decide what to do.

 

 

What is the premise of a vam...... is it based on die marriages, or is it based on coins that kinda look like each other, although they are not the same die pair?

 

Not strictly based on die marriages, although marriages can be very helpful in attributing VAMs. Many VAMs are die varieties - overdates, doubled dies, etc. Some VAMs are die stage varieties, like clashes. Some are even die gouges.

 

I think that any feature that uniquely identifies a given die is enough to get a VAM number assigned to that die. We'll see if anyone disagrees with me on that.

 

This results in many VAMs that are very minor die issues.

 

VAMs were my introduction to die variety collecting. I now collect shield nickel varieties, because I find them much more interesting than the average VAM. That's not to say that there aren't some spectacular VAMs, and I still enjoy owning those.

[zeewool]

Sorry, I do not know how to do the 'quote' thing yet..

 

Thanks Skippy... that is sorta what I was getting at ....... I have trouble understanding just what constitutes a vam..... there don't seem to be any rules.... Let me ask a couple more questions on this:

 

What is the minimum number of die pairs required to designate a particular vam?

 

What is the maximum number of die pairs that can be identified as a particular vam?

 

 

[skippy]

Sorry, I do not know how to do the 'quote' thing yet..

 

Thanks Skippy... that is sorta what I was getting at ....... I have trouble understanding just what constitutes a vam..... there don't seem to be any rules.... Let me ask a couple more questions on this:

 

What is the minimum number of die pairs required to designate a particular vam?

 

What is the maximum number of die pairs that can be identified as a particular vam?

 

 

To "do the quote thing", just hit the "quote" button at the bottom right of the post you are trying to quote.

 

Your other questions don't make much sense to me. A VAM number identifies a unique pairing of an obverse die and a reverse die. The focus is usually on either the obverse or the reverse, which shows some distinguishing characteristic, and the other die is recorded for completeness and attribution. It is possible for a single obverse die to be paired with multiple reverse dies and get different VAM numbers (also a single reverse to be paired with multiple obverses).

 

If you're asking about coins, the average number of coins struck from a Morgan dollar die was about 100,000. Of course, that's only an average, and many dies struck fewer coins than that. Availability of any one VAM is also affected by its likelihood to have been worn out in commerce, likelihood to have been destroyed in one of the great silver melts, and likelihood to have appeared in the GSA dollar sales.

[zeewool]

Thanks again Skippy...... I will practice with the quotes and see if I can get it right...

 

Also thanks for your answers to my questions...... (Yes, I can see how if a person believes that "a vam number identifies a unique pairing of an obverse die and a reverse die" that my questions do not make any sense).