1877 ngc ihc grading

[jwc]

Question about IHC grading. I recently purchased a 1877 penny. Coin arrived today and I am not sure how it graded a F-15 by NGC. I cannot make out any of the liberty letters in the headband. Do you think this coin was overgraded? Thanks Jerry

[Coindude]

Welcome to the board. First off, I don't think we can make an opinion on that without a photo. Any possibility of a photo? And yes, sometimes the key dates are a bit overgraded.

[jwc]

thanks for the welcome. The coin was purchased from ebay item # 180667094536

[Coindude]

Here you go. Not great photo's, but it looks to me as if the reverse has been cleaned. Looks to be genuine though, the "N" in ONE is weak on the bottom which is standard. Here's the NGC certification lookup as well. It for sure is the exact coin, but NGC's images seem to show the cleaning I was talking about on the reverse.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3382032-002

 

[jwc]

if it was cleaned wouldn,t NGC not grade the coin? I am just not sure if the coin is worth 1250. I am concerned about the no letters visibility. Looks more worn tha a F-15 should be?

[coinman_23885]

if it was cleaned wouldn,t NGC not grade the coin? I am just not sure if the coin is worth 1250. I am concerned about the no letters visibility. Looks more worn tha a F-15 should be?

 

I don't think it has been cleaned, but I do not agree with the F15 designation. I would return the coin or submit it to NGC under its appearance review service.

[jwc]

Thanks for the input. Looks more like a G4 to 6 maybe?

[cameron12x]

The photos are making it somewhat difficult, but I could go no higher than VG-8 with this example.

[James_OldeTowne]

It appears to be a solid VG-8, but the images are awfully fuzzy. The coin could be somewhat sharper than portrayed.

[SouthFlorida guy]

What were the circumstances in 1877 that made the IHC command these prices?

[BillJones]

If you could return that coin, I would. I think that it is only a Good and that it was cleaned at some point. It has a lot of wear, and I don't see any of the "LIBERTY" at all.

[BillJones]

What were the circumstances in 1877 that made the IHC command these prices?

 

The 1877 Indian cent has the second lowest mintage in the series at 852,500. The 1909-S Indian cent has a lower mintage at 309,000, but that coin was issued at the end of series and more were saved.

 

The mintage for the 1877 was low as a result of two factors. First the mintages from cents during the Civil War were high, but a lot of the coins were hoarded during the war by irrational people. After the war ended these coins were returned to circulation and the demand for new cents was much lower. In the Indian cent set there is a string of scarce dates from 1866 to 1878. The 1877 cent along with the 1869, 1871 and 1872 are the toughest dates.

 

Another factor concerned mint policy. For a considerable period the mint would replace worn cents that came to the mint with new ones. In 1877 there was a policy change. The mint started to take old worn cents, clean or wash them, and return them to circulation. For the year 1877 all of the new cents with that date were struck during the first two months of the year. After that the mint did not issue additional 1877 Indian cents. That resulted in making that coin the “key date” in the Indian cent series.

 

The last factor I should add is that this coin was issued in the middle of the series with no fanfare. The general public saw no reason to save them, and therefore the vast majority of the mintage saw heavy use. Many 1877 Indians were worn out and removed from circulation by the government, and most of the survivors are heavily worn.

[SouthFlorida guy]

 

Thank you for the input, Bill. Much appreciated.

[coinman_23885]

Thanks for the input. Looks more like a G4 to 6 maybe?

 

More like a VG8

[BillJones]

Thanks for the input. Looks more like a G4 to 6 maybe?

 

More like a VG8

 

It's VG-8 going by the debased "modern standards" which are more like what the less than ethical dealers were doing back when I was collecting Indian cents in the late 1960s. They used standards for VG that said stuff like "Date sharp and clear."

 

BOTTOM LINE: The coin shows no parts of the LIBERTY and there no reason to give it the "weak strike" excuse. The coin does not grade VG.

[Kamillion]

thats pretty crazy that that coin made it into a F-15 NGC holder

[jwc]

Thanks for all the help. The coin looks pretty good in person but its worn down a lot in the middle of coin where the letters are. I guess I can call NCG to try and get an explanation for the higher grade than it looks like it deserves. I also might take it to a local coin shop and have them look at it. Grading seems so be an inexact science. I still feel the coin is too expensive in its present condition and will try to return it.

[coinman_23885]

Thanks for the input. Looks more like a G4 to 6 maybe?

 

More like a VG8

 

It's VG-8 going by the debased "modern standards" which are more like what the less than ethical dealers were doing back when I was collecting Indian cents in the late 1960s. They used standards for VG that said stuff like "Date sharp and clear."

 

I was basing my assessment on the newer inflated standards. I have noticed inflation patterns on certain key date coins (e.g. 1916-D Mercury Dime).

[jwc]

Seller agreed to refund 1250 purchase price for coin. He still thought the F-15 rating was an accurate one! Thanks everyone for your input. I am kind of new to collecting but from everything I have read this coin was not an F-15 for sure. Nice to know I wasn,t seeing things. Jerry

[x2rider]

Good to see that you got a seller that will stand behind his return policy and make good if the customer is not happy.

There's plenty more fish in the sea

[BillJones]

Thanks for the input. Looks more like a G4 to 6 maybe?

 

More like a VG8

 

It's VG-8 going by the debased "modern standards" which are more like what the less than ethical dealers were doing back when I was collecting Indian cents in the late 1960s. They used standards for VG that said stuff like "Date sharp and clear."

 

I was basing my assessment on the newer inflated standards. I have noticed inflation patterns on certain key date coins (e.g. 1916-D Mercury Dime).

 

You are correct about the debased standards for the 1916-D Mercury dime.

 

Let me put things in perspective. If this Indian cent were dated 1907, would you still grade it VG or Fine? If the the answer is "no," then it's over graded. Rarity does not lower grading standards. You pay high prices for rarity, but you should not get a double whammy - a high price AND an over graded coin.

[coinman_23885]

 

You are correct about the debased standards for the 1916-D Mercury dime.

 

Let me put things in perspective. If this Indian cent were dated 1907, would you still grade it VG or Fine? If the the answer is "no," then it's over graded. Rarity does not lower grading standards. You pay high prices for rarity, but you should not get a double whammy - a high price AND an over graded coin.

 

I agree 100%; I never said that I personally agreed with the lowered standards.

[relicsncoins]

Pretty tough to grade a coin from those photos. NGC had the coin in hand which none of us have. I do agree, from the photos it does look like a G to VG coin.