I have important information that I don't feel I can safely release

[kryptonitecomics]

becuase I don't want to stir the pot but I think it's valuable information as to the state of the toned market....and more specifically toned coin grading. I may be over thinking things but what would you do

 

discuss

[Dcoin]

I guess the real question I would ask myself is...Will the info do more harm then good? If yes then keep it to yourself.

 

Information is a responsibility, whether coins or otherwise.

[James Mayer-migration]

I would love to know.

 

And I think information should be shared to everyone.

 

PM me?

[jerseycat10]

PM me with the details.

[Keigwin]

Spill it.

Lance.

[WoodenJefferson]

I don't think you'd be releasing the evil contained in Pandora's Box...but to collectors who remain in the dark ages when it comes to the market on toned coins, information could be one day a valuable asset.

 

Release the hounds...that is unless it will get you banned.

 

 

[JOBESSI]

Pm sent

[kryptonitecomics]

I know this is a very cryptic post from someone who is usually very up front about stuff but the whole more harm then good aspect is what I am weighing at this point.

 

I don't want to put to much emphasis on my findings as the sample size is small but it did open my eyes and force me to reevaluate stuff that has been said for years that I disagreed with .... now I found there is some truth to the statements about AT coins being graded

[TheMightyDuke]

If it is going to hurt the market, one would think the general collecting population SHOULD know about it before sinking good money into bad. Please PM me if you feel uncomfortable doing it in public, though I think if it's in everyone's best interest, it should go public, what with the exhorbitant premiums being paid for toners. I understand you have a plethora of toners, but to withold info that would otherwise benefit collectors...isn't that a dealer's responsibility???

 

Also, to have info, and not inform collectors, that might put you on 'the other side'. You have a great reputation here, ATS, everywhere...I'd hate to see another 'toned coin fiasco' like we saw ATS a few years ago with a certain Washington quarter collector turned doctor.

[cpm9ball]

Please send me a PM, and I promise not to divulge anything if that is your desire.

 

Chris

[19Lyds]

I know this is a very cryptic post from someone who is usually very up front about stuff but the whole more harm then good aspect is what I am weighing at this point.

 

I don't want to put to much emphasis on my findings as the sample size is small but it did open my eyes and force me to reevaluate stuff that has been said for years that I disagreed with .... now I found there is some truth to the statements about AT coins being graded

And this surprises you?

 

IMO, the toned coin market will survive regardless of what evidence is provided to the contrary simply because folks wish to....................believe.

[Dudley the 1st]

I'm not certain anything you could say would have a major impact either way, on the coin collecting community at large. . Unless you under some confidentiality agreement, lay it out for discussion .

[Dudley the 1st]

Are the top tier grading companies going to refuse to continue grading toned submissions ?

[kryptonitecomics]

I agree with everything being posted....I don't want to make this thread about some top secret major announcement but for sure I was surprised to see 5 PCGS graded AT coins arrive at my door step from a consignor

[TheMightyDuke]

I agree with everything being posted....I don't want to make this thread about some top secret major announcement but for sure I was surprised to see 5 PCGS graded AT coins arrive at my door step from a consignor

 

Sniffer on vacation that day???

[TheMightyDuke]

I SHOULD ask this....you KNOW 100% they were AT, yet they still made 'the grade'???

 

Makes me glad I love (and only buy) my coins blast white (as 100% white as possible, though some have slight crescent toning). I can handle 'dipped', but not AT'ed.

 

Dipped=not doctored

AT'ed= doctored

[MarkFeld]

You're already stirring the pot, whether you post specifics or not.

 

And for years, many numismatists have proclaimed that the major TPGs sometimes grade coins that some people believe or know are artificially enhanced/toned. Of course, as much as some of us deplore certain types of coin doctoring, there is no universally agreed upon definition of "AT".

[TheMightyDuke]

You're already stirring the pot, whether you post specifics or not.

 

And for years, many numismatists have proclaimed that the major TPGs sometimes grade coins that some people believe or know are artificially enhanced/toned.

 

Mark is correct...the mere mention of 'having info' was enough to get this post to be one very active thread here. This one is going to have LONG legs.

[Yaha]

I have always believed that a certain type of person can get a coin graded no matter how that coin is.

 

Then these coins are flushed in the market to bring $$ to many until the coin or coins are deemed worthless. JMHO and flame on. George

[19Lyds]

I SHOULD ask this....you KNOW 100% they were AT, yet they still made 'the grade'???

This would not surprise me in the least. Primarily because toning is a natural occurance that, once understood, can be assisted in many different ways.

 

The addition of chemicals that still exist on the surface is obviously detectable but naturally assisted toning is nothing more than an art in the hands of a determined individual.

 

Gas, sulphur laden envelopes, poorly regulated storage environment, poor (but deliberate) choice od storage media can all assist in creating these Monster toned coins which folks prefer to believe have been in the hands of some diligent collector over the years.

 

No doubt, some of this material actually exists but I believe that there are far more "assisted" examples from which to choose from than folks really want to believe.

[jerseycat10]

The information needs to be released, for as one poster previously stated, to help your fellow collectors chase bad money with good money.

[19Lyds]

You're already stirring the pot, whether you post specifics or not.

 

And for years, many numismatists have proclaimed that the major TPGs sometimes grade coins that some people believe or know are artificially enhanced/toned. Of course, as much as some of us deplore certain types of coin doctoring, there is no universally agreed upon definition of "AT".

This is absolutely correct given the fact that toning CAN be assisted.

[TomB]

You either know something or you don't and you are either willing to share it or you aren't. Otherwise, this appears to be a potentially self-serving post.

[kryptonitecomics]

It is not my intention to "stir said pot" and I really debated posting any mention of my finds but hobby protection does come to mind in a case like this.

 

To answer the most basic question in this thread...I know the coins are AT because I created them 5+ years ago when I got into toners really heavy. I just did simple experiments using silver coins placed in a high sulfer environment (match sticks) and then put them under a heat lamp. The coins did not look legit to me and the experiments allowed me to see colors and patterns that can be derived by this simple method. These are not valuable coins with or without the toning but I never in a million years thought they could get by PCGS or NGC.

 

These coins were sold in a bulk silver lot on ebay and each was marked as Art toning AT so there was no question they weren't legit. I had no clue they would be submitted and frankly from a cost prospective it made little sense to do so.

[TheMightyDuke]

You either know something or you don't and you are either willing to share it or you aren't. Otherwise, this appears to be a potentially self-serving post.

 

Considering Shane's eye for toners, and the amount of toners he has, it cxould also be self-damaging to not share. I'm sure it's not Shane's 'recipe', or whatever you'd call it, but once you open the can of worms.....and this can has been clearly opened.

 

No offense to Shane in the least, but the info should be made public. Sure, it's going to cause a stir, but he'll be more respected if he speaks up about it, instead of having it found out later, like the incident ATS...that was a slobberknocker.

[kryptonitecomics]

You either know something or you don't and you are either willing to share it or you aren't. Otherwise, this appears to be a potentially self-serving post.

 

Not sure what your talking about...please elaborate if you would be so kind?

[bsshog40]

I really believe that the market for toners have actually gone from NT to MA myself, regardless of how the toning got there.

[TheMightyDuke]

It is not my intention to "stir said pot" and I really debated posting any mention of my finds but hobby protection does come to mind in a case like this.

 

To answer the most basic question in this thread...I know the coins are AT because I created them 5+ years ago when I got into toners really heavy. I just did simple experiments using silver coins placed in a high sulfer environment (match sticks) and then put them under a heat lamp. The coins did not look legit to me and the experiments allowed me to see colors and patterns that can be derived by this simple method. These are not valuable coins with or without the toning but I never in a million years thought they could get by PCGS or NGC.

 

These coins were sold in a bulk silver lot on ebay and each was marked as Art toning AT so there was no question they weren't legit. I had no clue they would be submitted and frankly from a cost prospective it made little sense to do so.

 

Has that cost perspective changed, now that they are graded??? If so, you should spill the beans. Though, I see this as a slippery slope now, knowing you intentionally toned coins, then sold them (even though you sold them as 'Art' toning).

 

 

[mkman123]

very interesting! You should tell PCGS and see if the sniffer was turned off that day or malfunctioning!

[Dcoin]

Whether its 5, 50 or 500 AT coins sliding into TPG holders it does not shock me.

 

It is near impossible for a TPG to determin intent when it comes to color on a coin. Did the collector mean to put it in that album? how long did it take? was there an speeding agent added? We ask them to know the answers from looking at a metal disk.

 

Usually they get it right. Sometimes not.