Which brings more value -- (+) grade CAC sticker or a (*) grade ?

[TonerGuy]

As a toned collector Im not that concerned with with + grades or even CAC little green stickers.

 

Give me a * and Im a happy camper...

 

But has anyone ever done any research into which of the three designations actually bring more money at auction ?

 

Does it even matter to you when buying a coin ?

[jerseycat10]

I would believe that a * would merit more of a premium than a + or CAC.

 

A plus and CAC are nothing more than indicators that a coin is solid for the assigned grade. While this does add value, it only really assures you are not getting dreck.

 

A * on the other hand indicates superior eye appeal, which implicitly, indicates not only that a coin is beautiful in some way, but also that the coin is likely good for it's grade.

 

Just my personal humble opinion.

[MarkFeld]

It would depend on the type, date and grade of the coin, as well as what it looks like.

 

For example, some coins might bring more with a plus grade, due to registry set considerations. Among them, certain MS67 Walkers with low (or zero) populations in grade 68 have brought far more than they would have with CAC and/or star designations.

 

On the other hand, a star coin with great color could easily bring a greater premium than a typical plus or CAC coin. And in other cases, CAC certification can trump a plus or a star.

[MarkFeld]

I would believe that a * would merit more of a premium than a + or CAC.

 

A plus and CAC are nothing more than indicators that a coin is solid for the assigned grade. While this does add value, it only really assures you are not getting dreck.

 

A * on the other hand indicates superior eye appeal, which implicitly, indicates not only that a coin is beautiful in some way, but also that the coin is likely good for it's grade.

 

Just my personal humble opinion.

The star designation is subjective and inconsistent, to the extent that many star coins are other than gorgeous or special looking. And there is a common misconception that it signifies a coin which is "good for it's grade". The star is supposed to be about superior eye-appeal, not above average quality.

[TomB]

This is another one of those questions where it depends entirely upon the appearance on the coin and the potential buyer. The * coin could be very low end for the grade, but have some special attribute to earn the star. This coin might not be viewed as desireable by many collectors. On the other hand, the * coin might not only be high end, but might also have terrific eye appeal. As stated, it all depends.

 

I would add that the CAC sticker might be of more importance to you as a collector of toned coins since they not only typically come under scrutiny for grade, but also for the likely originality of the toning.

[TonerGuy]

I was speaking in more general terms... for you guys that attend and bid in auctions, are you seeing bigger premiums for + CAC or * coins... as a general rule...

 

Or as Mark pointed out a + for high end WLH is where its at... Are there other series and circumstances like that ?

 

I know I wouldnt really care about a MS64+ Peace dollar over a MS64 Peace $ and nor would I pay more for it toned or untoned...

 

I think (forgive me if Im wrong) the CAC sticker is awarded to a coin AFTER its been slabbed by a TPG... So the CAC grader never gets to see the coin raw.... so how reliable is that ?

 

As for the + grades, for me whether the coin is low end or high end for the grade is secondary - its really about how beautiful the toning is. A monster toned low end MS65 would be far more valuable than a nicely toned MS65...

 

And with all the talk about market grading couldnt a MS66+ today be a low end MS66 tomorrow?

 

Im just trying to figure out grading now I have to figure out + * and little green bean stickies on my slabs...

 

Thanks for the patience...

[MarkFeld]

I was speaking in more general terms... for you guys that attend and bid in auctions, are you seeing bigger premiums for + CAC or * coins... as a general rule...

 

Or as Mark pointed out a + for high end WLH is where its at... Are there other series and circumstances like that ?

 

I know I wouldnt really care about a MS64+ Peace dollar over a MS64 Peace $ and nor would I pay more for it toned or untoned...

 

I think (forgive me if Im wrong) the CAC sticker is awarded to a coin AFTER its been slabbed by a TPG... So the CAC grader never gets to see the coin raw.... so how reliable is that ?

 

As for the + grades, for me whether the coin is low end or high end for the grade is secondary - its really about how beautiful the toning is. A monster toned low end MS65 would be far more valuable than a nicely toned MS65...

 

And with all the talk about market grading couldnt a MS66+ today be a low end MS66 tomorrow?

 

Im just trying to figure out grading now I have to figure out + * and little green bean stickies on my slabs...

 

Thanks for the patience...

I think it's important to remember that, like numerical grading itself, plus grades, stars and CAC stickers (as well as various designations like "Cameo", "FH", "PL", etc.) are subjective. And that different buyers and sellers will have different opinions about the coins and their values.

 

Some NGC star coins, NGC and PCGS plus grade coins and NGC and PCGS CAC certified coins sell for whopping premiums, while others sell for virtually no premium. And that's the way it should be. The coins, themselves should, and often do dictate the price.

 

Please don't take the above to indicate that I don't care about expert grading and designation opinions - I do. But those considerations should not trump the appearance, quality and appeal (or lack thereof) of the coin.

[michael]

dont know

 

i need to see the coin and depending on what the coin looks like and the potential passionate collector qualified buyer

 

it could be all over the place with none of the + * cac

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Which brings more value -- (+) grade CAC sticker or a (*) grade ?

In my experience, if it is a true auction setting, with nobody trying to be a "market maker" in either stickers or stars, then I would say that hands-down, the star brings more value to the table.

 

However, we all know that there are folks out there who specifically make a market in stickered coins, and will place skewed sight-unseen bids no matter what the coin looks like.

 

Even with that in place, however, I still suspect that NGC's "star" carries more marketability than the sticker in a true, free-market scenario. I'll put it this way: I know people who will avoid a coin only for the fact that it has a sticker (a sort-of "anti estabilishment" mentality, if you will), but I have never heard anyone tell me he avoids coins with the star designation.

 

Edited to add: We should remember that stickers and stars are not mutually exclusive, either. I don't know how a coin with a sticker and a star would be perceived by the market (much less one with a sticker, star, and a "+").

[lehigh96]

Edited to add: We should remember that stickers and stars are not mutually exclusive, either. I don't know how a coin with a sticker and a star would be perceived by the market (much less one with a sticker, star, and a "+").

 

I bought this Franklin from R&I Coins and it was marketed as an Everest coin and was very expensive.

 

 

I purchased this Jefferson a few months ago and paid 3X Numismedia Retail.

 

 

I have never seen a coin with a sticker, *, and +.

 

IMO, the answer to the OP's question is related to the price difference between grades. For a conditional rarity, a "+" designation can be very valuable. Also, the price premium as a function of bid for toned (star) coins is much lower for more expensive coins. By that rationale, we should expect the star designation to perform better for lower value coins and the plus designation to perform better for higher value coins, generally speaking. As others have stated, the true answer will vary greatly from coin to coin.

[Walkerfan]

I have seen Soooo many pluses that, in reality, should have been minuses. CAC stickers are accurate about 50 % of the time with about another 25% being below the standard and the final 25% being simply 'accurately graded', which should have been the expectation in the first place! Stars seem to be based mostly on color and tone and NOT on strike but they SEEM a little more consistent as far as quality and accuracy.

 

If I were to buy a coin sight unseen, I would PROBABLY go with CAC, first, but with MUCH anticipation of POSSIBLY being dissappointed. I say this, because strike is of MOST importance to me and CAC's seem to recognize this attribute more consistently but not always. CAC's are, SOMETIMES, based on strike but Stars seem NEVER to be. I find the pluses to be a complete joke and basically frivolous. IMHO.

[TonerGuy]

I think Lehigh's response makes the most common sense...

 

A * should increase price more on an MS63 then a + would and a + would increase price more on a conditional rarity then a * would...

 

So buy lower end * and higher end + to get the best bang for your buck...

 

And as for the green beans... It sounds like the jury is still out on them...

[TomB]

I think Lehigh's response makes the most common sense...

 

A * should increase price more on an MS63 then a + would and a + would increase price more on a conditional rarity then a * would...

 

So buy lower end * and higher end + to get the best bang for your buck...

 

And as for the green beans... It sounds like the jury is still out on them...

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. My clients strongly prefer coins with a CAC sticker on the slab and this is first seen at about the $500 price level and then very strongly seen at about $2.5k or higher. Please note that the coins do not necessarily need a CAC sticker on them at the time of purchase, but need to be of a high enough quality within the indicated grade to likely receive the sticker upon submission.

[physics-fan3.14]

I think Lehigh's response makes the most common sense...

 

A * should increase price more on an MS63 then a + would and a + would increase price more on a conditional rarity then a * would...

 

So buy lower end * and higher end + to get the best bang for your buck...

 

And as for the green beans... It sounds like the jury is still out on them...

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. My clients strongly prefer coins with a CAC sticker on the slab and this is first seen at about the $500 price level and then very strongly seen at about $2.5k or higher. Please note that the coins do not necessarily need a CAC sticker on them at the time of purchase, but need to be of a high enough quality within the indicated grade to likely receive the sticker upon submission.

 

I think this has far more to do with any premium than a silly sticker.

[TomB]

I think Lehigh's response makes the most common sense...

 

A * should increase price more on an MS63 then a + would and a + would increase price more on a conditional rarity then a * would...

 

So buy lower end * and higher end + to get the best bang for your buck...

 

And as for the green beans... It sounds like the jury is still out on them...

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. My clients strongly prefer coins with a CAC sticker on the slab and this is first seen at about the $500 price level and then very strongly seen at about $2.5k or higher. Please note that the coins do not necessarily need a CAC sticker on them at the time of purchase, but need to be of a high enough quality within the indicated grade to likely receive the sticker upon submission.

 

I think this has far more to do with any premium than a silly sticker.

 

I honestly don't understand your response to my post.

[physics-fan3.14]

Tom, I think the high quality coins are the reason for the premium, not the sticker. You said that the coins needed to be of high enough quality to earn a sticker, as if the sticker were the reason for the premium.

[TonerGuy]

No one really answered my question above...

 

As for CAC - do they grade the coin in the slab or out of it ? Meaning does someone send a coin over, they pre-approve it for a sticker and then you send it back once graded for the anointment or;

 

Do you send it over once its been graded by a TPG ?

 

And if its the latter, can you really accurately grade the coin through the slab especially if you cant see all of the rim/reeding ?

 

I realize you can say "hey this is really nice for the grade" but can it truly be a 100% accurate opinion unless you have the raw coin in hand

 

Still learning....

[MarkFeld]

No one really answered my question above...

 

As for CAC - do they grade the coin in the slab or out of it ? Meaning does someone send a coin over, they pre-approve it for a sticker and then you send it back once graded for the anointment or;

 

Do you send it over once its been graded by a TPG ?

 

And if its the latter, can you really accurately grade the coin through the slab especially if you cant see all of the rim/reeding ?

 

I realize you can say "hey this is really nice for the grade" but can it truly be a 100% accurate opinion unless you have the raw coin in hand

 

Still learning....

CAC evaluates the coins in the holders, after they have been graded by NGC or PCGS.

 

The disadvantage of viewing the coin in the holder is the same one NGC and PCGS face in their crossover services.

[Tradedollarnut]

In order to accurately assess the impact of a * designation, one would need to compare prices realized of equivalent coins with and without the designation. Since * coins tend to be individual works of art, this would be difficult. Point being that you can't compare prices realized of different coins with and without the * because the * quality coin is always going to realized more because of its toning or whatever.

 

This is the same point being made above about the CAC quality - that the quality of the coin is always going to drive up the price already ... even without the sticker. The same argument can be made about the + designation.

 

My own personal opinion is that the + designation can mean huge price swings on PCGS coinage and that the CAC bean can mean huge price swings on NGC coinage. These are liquidity and demand factors at play. I do not think that the * designation adds much value at all because beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is self evident.

[TonerGuy]

CAC evaluates the coins in the holders, after they have been graded by NGC or PCGS.

 

The disadvantage of viewing the coin in the holder is the same one NGC and PCGS face in their crossover services.

 

Thank you. If thats the case then why not resubmit the coin to the original TPG to see if you can get a + or even an upgrade then ?

 

It seems like the CAC and the + are basically the same -- no ?

 

As for TDN's comment -- is there anyone collecting a whole series of * graded coins out there ?

 

Then perhaps the * might bring a premium just for the * and not for the coin. Buying the plastic ect.... Ive seen some * coins that probably shouldnt be * coins....

 

And for that matter is anyone trying to put together a whole series + coins now ?

[DirtyGoldMan]

I think Lehigh's response makes the most common sense...

 

A * should increase price more on an MS63 then a + would and a + would increase price more on a conditional rarity then a * would...

 

So buy lower end * and higher end + to get the best bang for your buck...

 

And as for the green beans... It sounds like the jury is still out on them...

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. My clients strongly prefer coins with a CAC sticker on the slab and this is first seen at about the $500 price level and then very strongly seen at about $2.5k or higher. Please note that the coins do not necessarily need a CAC sticker on them at the time of purchase, but need to be of a high enough quality within the indicated grade to likely receive the sticker upon submission.

 

We especially like it when the coin gets a gold sticker (which easily trumps green sticker, star, plus, and often the net grade up).

[Walkerfan]

I think Lehigh's response makes the most common sense...

 

A * should increase price more on an MS63 then a + would and a + would increase price more on a conditional rarity then a * would...

 

So buy lower end * and higher end + to get the best bang for your buck...

 

And as for the green beans... It sounds like the jury is still out on them...

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. My clients strongly prefer coins with a CAC sticker on the slab and this is first seen at about the $500 price level and then very strongly seen at about $2.5k or higher. Please note that the coins do not necessarily need a CAC sticker on them at the time of purchase, but need to be of a high enough quality within the indicated grade to likely receive the sticker upon submission.

 

We especially like it when the coin gets a gold sticker (which easily trumps green sticker, star, plus, and often the net grade up).

 

You know, that I've heard of CAC Gold stickers but I have never actually seen one....maybe THEN it will be accurately graded!

 

 

[lehigh96]

You know, that I've heard of CAC Gold stickers but I have never actually seen one....maybe THEN it will be accurately graded!

 

Based on your previous comment, I think you will still be disappointed. I think you need to resign yourself to the fact that you use a different grading standard than the TPG's. In my experience, strike is the least important grading factor to the TPG's. In you mind, it is the most important. That is a recipe your you to disagree with many of their grades. Here is a gold stickered coin.

 

[TomB]

After reading all of this thread and seeing the picture of a coin with a gold sticker, it confirms my origional thoughts about the CAC stickers and the * or + grades. None of them seem to be worth the higher cost to me. But thats just my opinion.

 

Origionally it was my understanding that the CAC sticker was simply a way of showing that the coin was viewed by a second party and varified to be authentic. But my thoughts about that is that it's not hard to have halographic decals duplicated by a counterfiter. This is the reason I dont specifically look for the sticker, instead I pull up the TPG's website and verify any slabbed coin I may be interested in purchasing prior to making a bid or a purchase. So far about 1/3rd of the coins I had been interested in were fakes according to the slab numbers used to verify the graded coin in question.

 

-Chris#2

 

You don't believe in going by much of a sample size, do you?

 

The CAC paradigm is to use another set of eyes to determine if the coin is within the top two-thirds of the grade as certified by the TPG and to state that the coin has no outward signs of manipulation to the surfaces (AT, putty, etc...). Of course, CAC likely has no problem with dipping on some issues, which also mirrors the greater hobby-industry. CAC also offers an online verification of coins. Go to their site and type in the certification number for a coin and it will tell you if the coin has received a sticker, but will not tell you in the coin was rejected. This is the same service as offered by the TPGs.

 

At this time you may think that CAC certification is not worth the $10 per coin, but then again we aren't simply talking about an increase in price but also an increase in liquidity and this can be worth its weight in gold. An example of increase in price would be my 1892 Barber half dollar. I had walked this coin around with me at a Baltimore show before CAC came into existance and allowed a few dealers to look at the coin. These were all dealers who attempt to specialize in this type of coin, so they were in their comfort zone. Each asked what I paid and then responded that I paid full retail and was into the coin all the way. A few months later CAC opened up and I brought the coin to CAC for evaluation where it received a gold CAC sticker. At the next Baltimore show I showed the coin to the same dealers and their buy offers had changed from my purchase price to my purchase price plus $10,000.

 

That might not be much to you, but it is a lot of money to most folks.

 

[Walkerfan]

@Lehigh-Thanks alot for showing me your Gold stickered Mercury. It looks quite worthy! Just wondering.....what do you think is the most important factor in grading to the TPGS.....also, what is YOUR most important factor?

 

@Tom--Beautiful Barber and thanks to you, as well, and that is a VERY interesting story and a GREAT testament to the bean. Only thing is-- how many coins actually receive a Gold Bean? I am quite certain that the % is extremely low. So my feeling is that GOLD BEANS are MORE than worth it.....grean beans, however, MAY add some value but a MUCH smaller % of add'l worth, as they are becoming more and more common, and YES 10K is definitely a huge chunk of change for MOST people!

[TomB]

Exactly. The CAC sticker did not change the coin at all, but the offers received for the coin went up substantially and this was due to the CAC sticker. The expressions on the dealers faces went from enjoying the coin before the CAC sticker was on the slab to being genuinely excited about an undergraded coin with such a wonderful look once the CAC sticker had been placed onto the slab. I knew the coin was terrific no matter what, but not all folks will know when they have something perhaps a little extra special.

 

The shipping and insurance is a legitimate concern, but since CAC does not take submissions from the general public, unless they are pre-screened, it means that you would pay an authorized submitter to send the coin in for you. This type of arrangement can end up in splitting the shipping and insurance. Also, if you are sending in more than one coin at a time your shipping and insurance is spread among several pieces. Lastly, CAC had previously done evaluations for free at the yearly CoinFest show in CT and they would take 20 coins per person for evaluation without cost. That really helped to lower the costs.

[toneddollars]

No CAC at the last coinfest, will they be returning? One of my gold CAC's

 

[lehigh96]

"At the next Baltimore show I showed the coin to the same dealers and their buy offers had changed from my purchase price to my purchase price plus $10,000."

 

The added CAC sticker didnt change the coin one bit, just the price. And for what reason really? just because it had an extra sticker?

 

plus its not just $10 per coin, you need to consider shiping and insurance of the coin both directions as well, So with that being said you're at $20 to $100's or dollars for a little green sticker added to the case.

 

As I said before its just my opinion and not everyone will share that opinion, but I honestly thought thats why we submited coins to reputable graders to begin with.

 

-Chris#2

 

You are right, the coin didn't change one bit. When Tom first showed the coin, it was a PQ MS66 1892 Barber Half Dollar but nobody was willing to pay a premium in hopes that it could regrade to the conditionally rare MS67. But add JA's opinion that the coin is indeed undergraded, and everybody was chomping at the bit to buy it at MS67 prices. I think Tom's example shows very well the respect that high end dealers and collectors have for JA's grading opinion.

 

Now you may attempt to trivialize the CAC all you want by simply referring to it as a "little green sticker", but to big ticket collectors it is an invaluable insurance policy for their purchases.

 

I will tell you that when I bid on a coin worth over $1,000 in an online auction, the presence of a CAC sticker plays an important role in my decision making process.

[TSully-migration]

Very nice coin. At what price point on a coin, in your opinion, makes the most sense to submit to CAC? $300, $500, more?

[lehigh96]

@Lehigh-Thanks alot for showing me your Gold stickered Mercury. It looks quite worthy! Just wondering.....what do you think is the most important factor in grading to the TPGS.....also, what is YOUR most important factor?

 

@Tom--Beautiful Barber and thanks to you, as well, and that is a VERY interesting story and a GREAT testament to the bean. Only thing is-- how many coins actually receive a Gold Bean? I am quite certain that the % is extremely low. So my feeling is that GOLD BEANS are MORE than worth it.....grean beans, however, MAY add some value but a MUCH smaller % of add'l worth, as they are becoming more and more common, and YES 10K is definitely a huge chunk of change for MOST people!

 

Walkerfan,

 

That is a very tough question to answer. At the higher mint state grades (MS66+) I think luster is most important but surface preservation is right there as well. In all other cases, surface preservation would rule.

 

What I mean by that is that often you will hear people refer to something as grade limiting. You can see a coin with mark in the focal area which is grade limiting despite luster, eye appeal, and strike worthy of a gem grade.

 

 

There are also coins with superb surfaces that are not graded as such because they have grade limiting luster.

 

 

Applied to my original statement, I think luster becomes more grade limiting in the premium gem grades and surface marks are more commonly the grade limiter in the lower mint state grades.