Legend's Santa Clara market report

[EVillageProwler]

Check out Legend's Santa Clara Market Report page: GO HERE.

 

EVP

[Hoot]

Nice report! Thanks! Crazy prices for everrything. The market is simply continuing its march upward.

 

Hoot

[Bruceswar]

mabye it can do down a bit so I can grab a few... then it can go up..

[Count_Erfit]

69 grand for an Oregon commem! Don't know about color, but for that price I would want cable, satellite, and free Pay per view for about 30 years.

 

Hard to discern "strong" from "nuts" on some prices.

 

[chinook]

Sometimes these prices remind me of the internet stock craze of 1999, where everyone bought on the "GREATER FOOL" theory. People always thought there was a greater fool to whom they could sell at a higher price.

[Tradedollarnut]

Folks: the coin is going into a knowledgable dealer's private collection. He doesn't give a damn about resale or greater fool theories. He knows what's the finest and is willing to pay up for it.... because it pleases him. What some of you fail to realize is that many times opportunity is far more important than price.

 

The monster coins have always brought monster prices.

[spy88]

I have to agree with TDN assessment. What many consider an exorbitant price realized for a coin in our hobby, is a relative drop in the bucket for others, regardless of their reason for buying. It must also be understood that the most rarest, the most unusual, the most beautiful, while different to different people, will always command a higher value everytime it changes hands. Otherwise, it would sit forever within one persons collection.

 

Monster coins have always bought monster prices.

This is one of those monsters within the early commems ranks.

 

I too enjoyed Legends report---but was put off by all the numerous typos and misspellings. Posting before proofreading and editing by such a noteworthy business is detrimental to their image. JMHO

 

David

[Count_Erfit]

TDN I agree with your "opportunity" thesis. I do it too. But I can't persuade myself (speaking only for me) to pop crazy money for a coin that can be had in absolutely SPECTACULAR condition and appearance for an itty bitty fraction of the price.

 

I am anything but cheap, but I suppose too "practical" to justify the opportunity factor on anything but coins that are usually crummy looking.

 

Color me dull.

 

[Wihlborg]

David,

 

It is true that ANY price realized by ANY coin is ‘relative’, because a coin is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at the time. I am sure that there are non-collectors who probably think we are crazy for paying any premium over face value for coins.

 

In the case of this coin however, I think the issue some (including me) have is that this is a common date coin up to MS-66, and even in MS-67 it is not particularly rare. According to the PCGS price guide an MS-67 is worth $3,250. Going by this value the realized price of $69,000 means that the buyer paid a $65,750 premium for toning! Toning that some say is getting darker, and according to the posts I have read, a lot of people don’t believe to be natural (I have never seen the coin in hand, but personally I believe the toning is probably natural).

 

Is this a beautifully toned coin? Absolutely. Would I ever pay a $65,750 premium for a common date coin with beautiful toning? Absolutely not! Not when I could buy another eye appealing MS-67 that technically is just as superb, but that’s just me.

 

With all that being said, I have nothing against the buyer for paying what he did, it was his money that was spent, not mine and in fact I congratulate him on his new acquisition.

 

John

[Tradedollarnut]

Some coins aren't coins - they are works of art. They transcend coin pricing. They are collected by individuals who don't care what the price guides say and will pay what it takes to acquire it.

 

The coin below cost me a significant premium - an amount I repeatedly refused to pay. Eventually, I gave in and paid it. Why? Because the coin is by far the most wildly toned Trade Dollar in existence. In order to buy it, I was up against not just trade dollar and type collectors, but also the 'art' collectors. Forget the price guides, it's worth what someone will pay.

 

The Oregon went off in public auction and there were multiple buyers above $50k. Obviously, it's worth every penny - regardless of whether or not some coin collectors feel the toning is questionable or the price is too high.

 

[EVillageProwler]

In the case of this coin however, I think the issue some (including me) have is that this is a common date coin up to MS-66, and even in MS-67 it is not particularly rare. According to the PCGS price guide an MS-67 is worth $3,250.

 

I cringe whenever I read something like this. To me, this kind of opinion too closely mirrors that of buying the holder and not the coin. If the holder tells you that it's at MSXX grade, then you pay a certain amount of money. Or, roughly within a reasonable neighborhood of that as according to whatever price guide you use.

 

I cannot in stronger terms caution against blindly following this kind of thinking. In my experience, the overall quality (and thus desirability) of a coin frequently has little correlation to that coin's slabbed grade. In other words, you absolutely have to buy the coin. I know that most of you profess to follow that sentiment, but any mention of voodoo pricing as the primary basis for deciding to buy the coin dispels the notion that you buy the coin and not the holder.

 

David Schweitz is a very experienced numismatist and dealer. I am certain he knows exactly what he's doing. Maybe he paid a little bit more than he expected, but certainly not to the extreme like that which is being expressed in the message boards.

 

And, I am certain that David as well as many of the other seasoned dealers has many customers who know that the quality of a coin (and its commensurate value) is minimally coupled to a linear notion like the slabbed grade.

 

BTW, I also want to stress in the strongest terms that my post is not directed any specific individual nor is it intended to blast anyone who thinks that they'd simply rather not pay so much so-called premium for a coin based on an aspect that they don't value quite so much.

 

EVP

[IrishMike]

This particular coin has been talked about many times, why because those who have seen it say it is spectactular. The price doesn't surprise me, I would have guessed lower but usually I guess on the low side the past 3 years. That tells me that this market is and will continue to be strong. Whether this price was justified will depend on the market and demand for this particular coin. It's interesting to note that sometimes these prices set the standard for this type of coin and sometimes they don't. It's the speculation that can make this hobby fun and interesting.

[EVillageProwler]

TDN,

 

That TD is definately AT. I should know, 'cuz I bathed in EVP's very own special tonic!

 

 

EVP

[EVillageProwler]

The price doesn't surprise me, I would have guessed lower but usually I guess on the low side the past 3 years.

 

Depends on how much lower. From the auction activity, it seems that there was more than 2 bidders at the $50K level. That means that the coin should be worth at a minimum of around $57,500. Does this mean that Schweitz paid a bit too much? Perhaps. But, not nearly as much as some are suggesting!

 

EVP

[Wihlborg]

The Oregon went off in public auction and there were multiple buyers above $50k. Obviously, it's worth every penny - regardless of whether or not some coin collectors feel the toning is questionable or the price is too high.

 

TDN,

 

Yes, worth every penny to the ‘art collectors’, but going by the posts, not to a lot of ‘coin collectors’.

 

BTW, that is a beautiful trade dollar!

 

John

[Wihlborg]

nor is it intended to blast anyone who thinks that they'd simply rather not pay so much so-called premium for a coin based on an aspect that they don't value quite so much.

 

EVP,

 

I noted the price listed in PCGS’s price guide only so I could give an example of the premium that was paid for the coin. I did not mean to imply that no one should ever pay a penny more than the price listed in any price guide for a coin.

 

I can’t talk for anyone else, but my reason for feeling the way I do about the realized price of this coin is exactly as you said, I personally just don’t value toning enough to justify a premium that high. I certainly appreciate beautiful toning as much as anyone, but at some point the individual collector has to decide for themselves how much of a premium they are willing to pay for toning. For me, once this level is reached I would rather buy another accurately graded MS-67 that is eye appealing in it’s own right and just as superb technically as the toned coin and use the money I saved on other coins.

 

John

[Count_Erfit]

I agree that toning is in a sense "art." However, it is transient art and not in the realm of less active media. All is transitory though and to each his own.

It's just ironic that we value random chemical reaction on a volatile and chemically active element in the same way as masterful talented strokes of oil on canvas.

 

So we're coin nuts.

 

And in 500 years who will care?

 

[EVillageProwler]

And in 500 years who will care?

 

If a bear does #2 in the woods, and no one is there, will Congress pass a bill to issue a commemorative coin?

 

 

EVP

[Wihlborg]

If a bear does #2 in the woods, and no one is there, will Congress pass a bill to issue a commemorative coin?

 

Probably!

 

John

[toneddollars]

This collector is putting together what he considers to be the finest looking (eye apeal)toned set of commemoratives in the highest grades possible. No one could argue that this coin is not the nicest looking (eye appeal) coin that one could add to a collection of toned pieces. He has deterimined its worth to him by what he paid. The fact that others were bidding him up to this figure , shows that there were others who felt the same as he. I congratulate him on his buy.

 

TD

[Wihlborg]

TD,

 

I am aware of who the collector is and have seen photos of some of the coins in his collection. I have also stated in my original post that I think the coin is beautiful and I also congratulated him on his new acquisition. I also agree that he paid what the coin was worth to him, with his money, and as I said in my original post I don't have a problem with that.

 

John

[toneddollars]

Whilborg,

 

I just happened to click on your reply. I was in no way attacking you, just trying to add to the discussion. From now on I'll chose who I reply to for carefully. No harm intended.

[Wihlborg]

TD,

 

Although I did think you were replying to me, your post did not offend me. I just wanted to clarify that I was in no way implying that I had a problem with what David paid for the coin. The whole point of my posts on this matter was only to try to explain why some may feel 'shocked' by the price it achieved.

 

No harm taken

 

John

[DonHeath]

the overall quality (and thus desirability) of a coin frequently has little correlation to that coin's slabbed grade

 

I'm just happy I've arrived at a place in my persuit that I understand what that means.

 

TDN, that is a fabulous piece.

[spy88]

TDN,

 

That is one fabulous MS67 dollar! Simply beautiful!

How do you protect it from Seattles humidity? (My old home!).

David

[Count_Erfit]

EVP.......If a bear does # 2 in the woods, it will probably be accomplishing MORE ....POSITIVE.... results than congress does in a year.

 

 

[Wihlborg]

 

John