Why did NGC mislabel these? ***THIS HAS BEEN RESOLVED !**

[JRocco]

Why does NGC label THESE restrikes from the 19th century without noting they are restrikes? This Papal Medal was not struck in the 16th century so why is it labeled with a 16th century date and not labeled a restrike?

This is VERY misleading and downright WRONG

If anyone from NGC reads this PLEASE explain this extreme error.

I could understand if possibly ONLY restrikes were existant, but this is not the case.

Here is a 1575 Papal Medal of Pope Gregory XIII.

This is an original piece from 1575 and not a re-strike unlike the medal NGC slabbed in that EBAY auction and MISLABELED by not noting it a restrike.

 

An explanation is needed here.

 

 

[Keigwin]

Why does NGC label THESE restrikes from the 19th century without noting they are restrikes? This Papal Medal was not struck in the 16th century so why is it labeled with a 16th century date and not labeled a restrike?

This is VERY misleading and downright WRONG

If anyone from NGC reads this PLEASE explain this extreme error.

I could understand if possibly ONLY restrikes were existant, but this is not the case.

Here is a 1575 Papal Medal of Pope Gregory XIII.

This is an original piece from 1575 and not a re-strike unlike the medal NGC slabbed in that EBAY auction and MISLABELED by not noting it a restrike.

 

An explanation is needed here.

I see what you mean but is the medal really labeled with a 16th century date? 1572-1585...isn't that His Holiness' years as pope?

 

Looks to me like NGC ran out of room on the cert label! .

 

I don't collect these or know anything about them, really. But those certainly are pretty medals. Wasn't Gregory XIII the calendar dude? He was ahead of his time, so to speak.

Lance.

[MarkFeld]

If you really feel that way, why not contact NGC directly? That would dramatically increase your chances of having an impact.

[JRocco]

If you really feel that way, why not contact NGC directly? That would dramatically increase your chances of having an impact.

 

Hi Mark,

I do really feel this way and thought that NGC would see this on their boards. I also just emailed them directly with a link to this thread to be sure they are aware..

Thanks,

JRocco

[gmarguli]

I see what you mean but is the medal really labeled with a 16th century date? 1572-1585...isn't that His Holiness' years as pope?

 

I think we are reading it the same way. They are not saying that this was minted in 1572-1585 (the date is usually the first item on the top line), but rather that these were the years of his reign.

 

I think they got this one correct, but it is a little confusing.

[JRocco]

I see what you mean but is the medal really labeled with a 16th century date? 1572-1585...isn't that His Holiness' years as pope?

 

I think we are reading it the same way. They are not saying that this was minted in 1572-1585 (the date is usually the first item on the top line), but rather that these were the years of his reign.

 

I think they got this one correct, but it is a little confusing.

 

Many, in fact most of these pieces are not dated. The majority are listed by the year of the Pope's reign. Ano 1 would be the first year of the papacy, Ano 2 the second and so on. These are restrikes of original pieces that were originally struck during those years. If I sent in my piece and an exact copy of a restike would they label them the same or would they, in a moment of tremendous insight, realize that one was minted in 1575 and the other restruck some 300 years later.If the originals did not exist then this would be fine, but they are slabbing restrikes and not labeling them as restrikes while original exist for all these pieces.

 

They did not get this correct. Not even a little, not even close.

[JRocco]

Perhaps I did not state this clearly.

 

What is in that NGC slab is a COPY of a genuine Papal Medal that is available in its original state.

 

They slabbed a COPY and did not label it as such.

 

The originals do exist.

[TheMightyDuke]

Perhaps I did not state this clearly.

 

What is in that NGC slab is a COPY of a genuine Papal Medal that is available in its original state.

 

They slabbed a COPY and did not label it as such.

 

The originals do exist.

 

I don't think it's such a biggie they didn't label it 'COPY', as much as they SHOULD have labeled it 'RESTRIKE'.

[JRocco]

Perhaps I did not state this clearly.

 

What is in that NGC slab is a COPY of a genuine Papal Medal that is available in its original state.

 

They slabbed a COPY and did not label it as such.

 

The originals do exist.

 

I don't think it's such a biggie they didn't label it 'COPY', as much as they SHOULD have labeled it 'RESTRIKE'.

 

I agree

It should be labeled a restrike.

I had a long "discussion" with a younger collector who argued with me that this NGC slab contained an original 16th century medal "because NGC would never slab a restrike without labeling it as such"

I am saddened that NGC did this and will be even sadder if they don't correct this as best they can going forward. But a quick EBay search will show that they put quite a few of these restrikes in slabs that are MISLABELED.

 

Shame on NGC

They should, and do know better.

And if they don't know they need to change the staff.

[Conder101]

Even if we realize that it is a restrike, someone somewhere WILL sell this to a collector who doesn't know better as a genuine high grade 16th century medal. And they will be able to do so because it isn't marked restrike.

[JStull]

Whatever happened to an old fashioned phone call or letter when you have a gripe?

 

Since it is not very likely, if at all, that someone from NGC, who could help you with this problem, would come to these forums and see your gripe here, why do as Mark suggested and make an impact by contacting NGC directly?

[JRocco]

Even if we realize that it is a restrike, someone somewhere WILL sell this to a collector who doesn't know better as a genuine high grade 16th century medal. And they will be able to do so because it isn't marked restrike.

 

Exactly

And therein lies the problem. Well said.

 

Hi JStull.

I have contacted NGC directly and am awaiting a response.

I posted this on THEIR boards so others can be aware. Shouldn't we all want to increase our knowledge/awareness when wrongs have occurred? Better if we, as collectors kept our heads out of the sand and were all aware of such MAJOR mistakes, even when a top company, like NGC screws up (as is the case here). I understand brand loyalty and the effects of KoolAid and all such other issues as I have been in this game for a long time, but a MAJOR SCREW UP is a MAJOR SCREW UP no matter how great the company may be. I have been touting and elevating this company ATS for many many years so I understand brand loyalty well and own a ton of their slabs. They are a great company...

BUT

 

NGC is putting copy's/restrikes in their slabs and NOT labeling them as copy's/restrikes. Not really cool with those of us who search for and pay TOP DOLLAR for the originals.

 

Imagine if they started putting the Franklin Mint replica's of a nice ...say...chain cent in a slab and DID NOT label it as a restrike but labeled it THE SAME as they are labeling the real deal? Now that would tick you off if you spent 7 figures on a high grade original. This may be an extreme example but say they did the same with say....a high grade Morgan copy/restrike. Imagine they start putting gem grade CC Morgan restrikes in slabs and DO NOT label them as restrikes?

THEY ARE DOING THIS NOW WITH THESE MEDALS AND IT IS WRONG.

 

 

[JRocco]

Here is an original 16th century Papal Medal and a brief comment by one of the specialist in this field.

Now imagine one of the more common restrikes being slabbed and labeled by NGC without noting it a restrike. I own this original and DO NOT appreciate that a top TPG company such as NGC would slab a restrike or copy while I own an original and paid the full value for this original AFTER YEARS of searching for an original through the sea of restrikes available.

"This medal appears to be an original of Clem VIII, 1592-1605. Its not in the Lincoln nor Mazio cats, which have instead the 18th-19th century restrikes of the same type but of year 7. It is in CNORP which gives it number 954 (the restrike is 955). If I read the CNORP correctly, this was the "annual" medal for 1593, the 2nd year of the pope.

 

Obverse is the work of Giorgio Rancertti (whose initials should be in exergue) and the reverse that of Gian Cristofor Romano. The reverse was "borrowed" from a medal of Julius II (originally struck in 1506).

 

Annona was used on ancient Roman coins to refer to the annual harvest and importation of grain from Egypt to feed Rome (the annual "corn dole") and can also refer to prosperity as the personification of plenty. This is why the figure of Annona is shown holding grain and a cornucopia. This pope was a reformer who, everything net, strengthened the papacy, so my sense is that this piece refers to the public prosperity brought about (or at least anticipated) by his policies.

 

Interesting type (which I don't have and guess I ought to start looking for) and I assume much scarcer than the "common" Mazio restrikes.

 

Hope that helps."

The above is a quote.

NGC needs to address this and STOP mislabeling these pieces.

 

edited to add -- Note on the obverse the lettering to the right of the bust at K4 it shows AN II

This referrs to this medal being struck in the second year of the papacy - 1593

[Conder101]

Is it possible that NGC didn't realize it was a restrike?

[leeg]

When DGS started up I was helping do attributions. Some of these foreign types are very difficult to determine authenticity even with the best references. I'm sure there was no malice on NGC's part in this. I've found a person get's better results when being polite then angry. Emails and phone call's tend to get better results then bashing. Just my opinion.

[Schatzy]

I'm sure there was no malice on NGC's part in this. I've found a person get's better results when being polite then angry. Emails and phone call's tend to get better results then bashing. Just my opinion.

 

I agree!! If you just called NGC you would have already had an answer. I found that NGC has excellent customer service.

[JRocco]

Is it possible that NGC didn't realize it was a restrike?

 

That sure could be a possibility. But I would assume that a little research went into grading these and even a novice would be able to learn that there are contemporary (19th century) restrikes available. In fact, restrikes are the rule a hundred to one.

There are responsibilities when a piece is slabbed.

 

As to being politically correct and starting off my sentences with sugar laced honey.....a quick EBAY search will show that they did not drop the ball on this one slab. They have slabbed and labeled A HUGE AMOUNT of these pieces. In fact, I would love an honest answer as to how many were MISLABELED.

This is not an easy cat to put back in the bag. In fact, I have no clue how they are going to rectify this MISTAKE to all us collectors of this series. If this effected some of your personal collections you might understand this feeling.Sorry, but I am just not all full of love about this.

I believe that this needs to be posted so people can learn to not just trust these slabbed and labeled medals because they were MISLABELED by NGC.

 

edited to add - I am not bashing. A WRONG has been done here by NGC and I am pointing it out to fellow collectors.

If I were bashing I would not be this polite.

 

[messydesk]

Yes, it's possible NGC didn't realize this, and yes a phone call would have produced answers quickly, but posting it (with a certain degree of alarm) here will result in more people knowing about this issue. The casual new collector of these who Googles "Papal Medals NGC" will probably see this thread in the search results and learn a valuable lesson and possibly be saved paying tuition in the process.

[JRocco]

Thank you md, that was exactly the reason for this post.

I am sure, as has been said that there was no malice on NGC's part, 100% sure. And as I have stated - I stand up for, and put my faith behind the folks at NGC regularly. I am one of those people ATS that gets into hot water often because I won't drink their Kool Aid when they are putting this company down....but I don't really like Kool Aid in any flavor.

I have no idea how this can be corrected for all those medals that are now in mislabeled slabs, but I hope that at best NO MORE will be added to the market,

This post will hopefully help some that may want to buy a medal like this to be aware of what they are buying. Collectors need to know that there are now an unknown number of these (unknown at the present time at least) in the marketplace that are mislabeled and the consequences of this can be very costly as well as very damaging to this area of numismatics.

 

Please do the right thing NGC - whatever that may be and at whatever cost this may result to you.

[JRocco]

Just an update

I have not heard back from NGC as of this time and re-send my email with an attachment to this thread.

I hope to have some feedback soon.

[fishfinder]

Hi JR,

Have you post this in the "Ask NGC" forum? ...A mod will usually answer.

[JRocco]

Hi Fish,

No I haven't. I didn't even know that forum existed.

Thanks for the info it is really appreciated.

 

edited to add - I just submitted this on the Ask NGC forum with a link to this thread.

Thanks again.

This needs to be resolved before more damage is done.

[JRocco]

I hope this will be addressed today.

[Max Spiegel]

I sent this as a PM to JRocco, but I wanted to let you all know what we are doing.

 

We are aware of the problem with the labeling of these Papal Restrike medals and it has been corrected internally so that in the future these medals will be properly labeled. We are also in the process of contacting the submitters and current owners of the mislabeled pieces so that they can be corrected.

[Hard Times]

Max well done, this is why I submit to NGC, they listen to their customers. Every one I meet at the NGC booth at shows is always friendly, cordial and helpful. Keep up the good work.

 

Best, HT

[JRocco]

Hey Max,

I thanked you via PM, but also wanted to take a minute to thank you publicly as well. As a long time collector I have always had faith in this company and your response to me proves my faith is well founded.

Thank you for doing the right thing...something that unfortunately is not always done.But let it be known - NGC did the right thing here.

Well done sir,

Thanks,

John

[TonerGuy]

NGC really does have far superior customer service compared to PCGS. PCGS just boots you off their boards in an effort to silence their detractors - here they actually admit their mistakes and solve problems....

 

Well done !

[messydesk]

Good to hear!

[JRocco]

Good to hear!

 

Things like this do restore your faith.

 

I also hope it shows some that sometimes you need to shout FIRE in a movie theater if there really is a fire.

 

[cpm9ball]

Good to hear!

 

Things like this do restore your faith.

 

I also hope it shows some that sometimes you need to shout FIRE in a movie theater if there really is a fire.

 

Why shout "FIRE" if there is an extinguisher (Ask NGC) on the wall next to you?

 

Chris