Very head scratching thread ATS.. About misgrades by TPGS/NGC

[Yaha]

I would be very upset if this happened to me. I have had many coins graded by well known dealers in years because of fear of this happening when buying raw coins in this market. By doing this, my investment would be sort of 99% sure to get a correct label..

 

This business has a ton of sharks.. Coin dealing is no different from a being a Used Car salesman, a mom/pop grocery store. You get my drift!!!

 

I am wondering though, if PCGS has a coin sniffing machine for this continued coin doctoring and this coin was "CLEANED" and passed by them, I would ask the maker of the CFM device, for a refund.. On the other hand if NGC dropped the ball and PCGS got it right, well not good and would want answers if I was the owner before it got a new home..

 

I know when we pay TPG's for a opinion, you are hoping for a correct assumption by spending one's money for it.. Again, on the other hand, no doubt many know mistakes happen and thus others cashing in on unfortunate mistakes..

 

 

Comments or theories.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=807829

 

 

 

 

[TomB]

Both TPGs use proprietary standards developed at least partially in-house. Therefore, they may both be correct in their assesment of the coin in question.

[Yaha]

Tom, your wisdom is correct. But, man at who's expense? Shouldn't be a crapshoot.. This is why if anyone is reading this offering from me or ATS..

 

Please learn as much as you can about grading coins. If in doubt, pay your money, if grade is not what you expect, crack it out and try another TPG.

 

Buying raw coins in today's market is no different than in years past.. George

[MarkFeld]

I would be very upset if this happened to me. I have had many coins graded by well known dealers in years because of fear of this happening when buying raw coins in this market. By doing this, my investment would be sort of 99% sure to get a correct label..

 

This business has a ton of sharks.. Coin dealing is no different from a being a Used Car salesman, a mom/pop grocery store. You get my drift!!!

 

I am wondering though, if PCGS has a coin sniffing machine for this continued coin doctoring and this coin was "CLEANED" and passed by them, I would ask the maker of the CFM device, for a refund.. On the other hand if NGC dropped the ball and PCGS got it right, well not good and would want answers if I was the owner before it got a new home..

 

I know when we pay TPG's for a opinion, you are hoping for a correct assumption by spending one's money for it.. Again, on the other hand, no doubt many know mistakes happen and thus others cashing in on unfortunate mistakes..

 

 

Comments or theories.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=807829

 

 

 

I don't think the "coin sniffer" is designed to detect cleaning, so it would be unfair and silly to ask it's maker for a refund.

 

And grading is subjective, as is the determination as to whether a coin has been cleaned harshly enough to no-grade it.

 

 

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Why am I thinking PCGS only utilizes the sniffer on "Secure Plus" submissions?

 

I'm thinking along the lines of a "What if...." scenario where the first party correctly nailed the coin and the subsequent crack out and submission resulted in giving a "Details" coin a numerical grade.

[michael]

grading is highly subjective

and there are no federal, state, and local govt standards/regulations

for coin grading

 

let the buyer beware/you pays your monies and you takes your chances

 

 

if you send a coin to a for-profit private grading company for their opinion using their own standards------- they give it to you, you might not like it and if so' then dont send anything in for their opinion

 

nothing more nothing less

[TonerGuy]

Friends in high places ?

[Conder101]

Why am I thinking PCGS only utilizes the sniffer on "Secure Plus" submissions?

Because you are right, at least for now.

[MarkFeld]

Friends in high places ?

No, just the subjectivity of grading.

[halfpint]

 

...would anyone have any thoughts on the CAC sticker thrown into the mix?

[Mark T]

I think NGC got it wrong and PCGS got it right on this one. Does anyone here think this coin was cleaned ? Obviously the opinion is based solely on the picture.

 

What I find interesting is the description from Heritage:

The NGC coin Heritage describes as “mildly bright and glossy example with straw-gold centers and rich russet-tan borders”

PCGS description from Heritage - ‘Originally toned with dusky orange-gold borders and lighter straw-gold centers.”

 

Mildly bright and glossy = cleaned

Originally toned = not cleaned.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I think NGC got it wrong and PCGS got it right on this one. Does anyone here think this coin was cleaned ? Obviously the opinion is based solely on the picture.

 

What I find interesting is the description from Heritage:

The NGC coin Heritage describes as “mildly bright and glossy example with straw-gold centers and rich russet-tan borders”

PCGS description from Heritage - ‘Originally toned with dusky orange-gold borders and lighter straw-gold centers.”

 

Mildly bright and glossy = cleaned

Originally toned = not cleaned.

Judging by that toning pattern, I think the coin has been cleaned, per NGC's original assessment.

 

But... so what? It's just an opinion to begin with. And so what if a rare coin has been lightly cleaned? Does a $10,000 rarity suddenly become worth only five cents because it was lightly wiped in 1915? Of course not.

 

There is so much tiresome haggling over cleaning, wiping, dipping, soap-and-watering, etc. At some point, common sense MUST prevail, and MUST take precedence over "grade".

 

I think PCGS and NGC were BOTH right in this instance, and that doesn't require them both to have the same opinion. It's a darned nice coin from what I can tell. Why get so all worked up about the writing on the plastic?

[MrEureka-migration]

At some point, common sense MUST prevail

 

Thanks for the laugh!

 

 

[RWB]

...it's opinion...

[Dudley the 1st]

 

 

Tom, your wisdom is correct. But, man at who's expense? Shouldn't be a crapshoot.. This is why if anyone is reading this offering from me or ATS..

 

Please learn as much as you can about grading coins. If in doubt, pay your money, if grade is not what you expect, crack it out and try another TPG.

 

Buying raw coins in today's market is no different than in years past.. George

 

 

 

I posed the same question in a recent thread of my own here. At who's expense ? It seems that both NGC and PCGS make a very good living from the income generated by re-grades . Oh I forgot, we are supposed to PAY for their errors . What is wrong with this picture ?

[Oldtrader3]

You surely can not buy that coin and see the real coin, with those pictures, particularly the current one.