More Proof that Coin Grading is Subjective

[mike169]

A comment.

 

Lee is right. Coin grading is subjective. If it was objective, all coins of the same type would be graded in the same manner. Why should rarities get the bump up? Lee does have a clue of what he's talking about. More than some people over here.

 

 

 

[Coindude]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

I agree, it could have been handled in a nicer way. And this is from an outsider looking in, I have no horse in the race.... It seems that we are neglecting to see that Lee posted pictures of a coin that wasn't his. Pictures that belonged to someone else, that he cropped and made to seem like his. Pictures that it seems had the intent to show that his coin was properly graded and the other was not.

 

This of course is all subjective. Like I said, I have no interest here whatsoever and when I initially saw this thread and the pictures, if it were up to me, I would have preferred to own the 1807. That's just me though, it doesn't matter that the coins are both properly graded, I would only need one for a type set and to me, the 1807 had better eye appeal.

 

If someone did that to you, I'm sure you'd take some sort of offense to it, I imagine I would. I might have taken care of it via PM, but you just never know, sometimes the situation gets in the way of my better judgment... just ask my wife!

[Hard Times]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

 

You talkin' to me?

[Hard Times]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

 

You talkin' to me? What would you do if you spent some much time imaging coins, then someone lifted them for their own use and agenda without asking? In fact, after being pissed off, as anyone should be, I PM'ed the OP and asked him not to do this again, and told him next time to ask. In fact, the OP then removed the modified images.

 

Many things could be done much nicer by many folks. He who is not guilty cast the first stone. Oh idhair, you must be not guilty, I have no doubt you are a nicer person in all regards in all things. Not - the hyprocracy and pretentiousness of your words, are quite revealing.

 

Remind me not to post to any of your threads.

 

 

[Hard Times]

A comment.

 

Lee is right. Coin grading is subjective. If it was objective, all coins of the same type would be graded in the same manner. Why should rarities get the bump up? Lee does have a clue of what he's talking about. More than some people over here.

 

 

 

 

No one is saying leeg is wrong, but what I am saying is you can't go to early mint die varieties, each with their distinct issues, and compare direct grades. Do some research about this and predict you will see.

 

Now if you take a common 1916-D, 20th century mercury dime, and you line up 20 MS64 and 20 MS65, and compare them all, you will likely reach a conclusion that grading has some level of subjectivity. Of course it does, we are all human. You will also likely learn alot about how top TPG's grade and this would be a nice exercise.

 

But again, taking it out of context, on how you grade two different die varieties of two different years of quarters from the early mint without taking into consideration of their nuances during minting and die processing, then you can't make an argument about grading being subjective. That is not a valid comparison.

[Hard Times]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

I agree, it could have been handled in a nicer way. And this is from an outsider looking in, I have no horse in the race.... It seems that we are neglecting to see that Lee posted pictures of a coin that wasn't his. Pictures that belonged to someone else, that he cropped and made to seem like his. Pictures that it seems had the intent to show that his coin was properly graded and the other was not.

 

This of course is all subjective. Like I said, I have no interest here whatsoever and when I initially saw this thread and the pictures, if it were up to me, I would have preferred to own the 1807. That's just me though, it doesn't matter that the coins are both properly graded, I would only need one for a type set and to me, the 1807 had better eye appeal.

 

If someone did that to you, I'm sure you'd take some sort of offense to it, I imagine I would. I might have taken care of it via PM, but you just never know, sometimes the situation gets in the way of my better judgment... just ask my wife!

 

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your assessment. I did take care of it by PM as I noted, but only after I was pissed off and posted what I did. I am not apologetic of my pissed off notes, I feel it was justified but I agree that it could have been handled better. Having said that, I thanked lee from removing the pics and then re-posted them do the dialogue could continue. It is an important issue to discuss, but it must be done in the context of how one grades early mint issues differently that more recent issues for the reasons I have stated.

 

Some of our colleagues have not been so kind - idhair and wooden nickel, possibly others, and I have responded to their words in kind. But I thank you for your level headed comment here, it helps diffuse the situation. I have no intention to making enemies on these threads, but I in some cases I won't back down to what I feel is in appropriate comments or behavior.

 

Frankly, it was a shock to my system to see my pics lifted, and used in a manner that tried to paint a top TPG as doing questionable grading without taking into account the die variety issues as noted above. In my field in science, this kind of thing happens all the time. When I first started doing science, I was just as shocked that people were not doing their research and 'lifting' ideas and data from others without proper citation. Over the years, I grew a thick skin to this and now just laugh it off and correct it professionally when it involves me. Now I know the same thing may happen here, my skin has grown thicker and I adjust.

 

Best, HT

 

 

[ldhair]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

 

You talkin' to me? What would you do if you spent some much time imaging coins, then someone lifted them for their own use and agenda without asking? In fact, after being pissed off, as anyone should be, I PM'ed the OP and asked him not to do this again, and told him next time to ask. In fact, the OP then removed the modified images.

 

Many things could be done much nicer by many folks. He who is not guilty cast the first stone. Oh idhair, you must be not guilty, I have no doubt you are a nicer person in all regards in all things. Not - the hyprocracy and pretentiousness of your words, are quite revealing.

 

Remind me not to post to any of your threads.

 

You read way too much in what I posted. It was simple and true. It's not worth the debate and seeing you get pissed off, yet again.

[mike169]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

 

You talkin' to me? What would you do if you spent some much time imaging coins, then someone lifted them for their own use and agenda without asking? In fact, after being pissed off, as anyone should be, I PM'ed the OP and asked him not to do this again, and told him next time to ask. In fact, the OP then removed the modified images.

 

Many things could be done much nicer by many folks. He who is not guilty cast the first stone. Oh idhair, you must be not guilty, I have no doubt you are a nicer person in all regards in all things. Not - the hyprocracy and pretentiousness of your words, are quite revealing.

 

Remind me not to post to any of your threads.

 

 

You must be having a wonderful life if "lifting pictures" pisses you off.

[Walkerfan]

I, for one, must admit that I knew very little about the Browning-4 die variety of Bust Quarters. I will do some research before responding, so quickly, in the future and I am glad that I have learned something new.

[WoodenJefferson]

Hard Times, your sigline image violates the size limit allowed, please adjust accordingly so forum members time while visiting here is expedited.

 

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Thank You

 

Note: This thread is such a train wreck I figured this additional post would fit right into the carnage.

[coinman1794]

No offense meant here.

 

 

 

Enjoy your day........

 

 

Only two coins, with solid strikes and from the same die paring, can be compared for grade when dealing with Early US coinage, and even then, it's a challenge to do so. The dies were overused and abused during the days of the early mint. For instance, only two obverse dies were used to coin the entire 1807 production, which was the largest in the Draped Bust 25C series, at 220,643 coins.

 

These two coins cannot be compared. They are different die marriages, struck at different times on open collar presses, with completely different reliefs, and wear patterns, from the time of striking.

 

Further, the 1806 B-3 loses all central details on late die states, and it also gets a deep open circle "()" shaped die defect on the left side of the vertical shield lines (probably a bi-product of the mint's attempt to save the sunken die. PCGS graded the 1806 F-12 because it shows no detail, even though it seems to display the light wear of a VF+ coin. They often market grade weird coins like this, rather than confuse the average collector who doesn't know the anomalies of each die variety. Then again, I have seen these B-3s in UNC slabs with the same flat details. The grading services have never been consistent on Early US coins.

 

The 1807 is arguably a solid VF20. It shows little wear and most of the weakness at the rims is strike related, again from a late die state, and probably unevenly positioned dies, which were not parallel.

 

[Hard Times]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

 

You talkin' to me? What would you do if you spent some much time imaging coins, then someone lifted them for their own use and agenda without asking? In fact, after being pissed off, as anyone should be, I PM'ed the OP and asked him not to do this again, and told him next time to ask. In fact, the OP then removed the modified images.

 

Many things could be done much nicer by many folks. He who is not guilty cast the first stone. Oh idhair, you must be not guilty, I have no doubt you are a nicer person in all regards in all things. Not - the hyprocracy and pretentiousness of your words, are quite revealing.

 

Remind me not to post to any of your threads.

 

You read way too much in what I posted. It was simple and true. It's not worth the debate and seeing you get pissed off, yet again.

 

Yet again you read way too much into what I posted. I was not pissed off, I was laughing at you. I found this to be very funny, hence:

[Hard Times]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

 

You talkin' to me? What would you do if you spent some much time imaging coins, then someone lifted them for their own use and agenda without asking? In fact, after being pissed off, as anyone should be, I PM'ed the OP and asked him not to do this again, and told him next time to ask. In fact, the OP then removed the modified images.

 

Many things could be done much nicer by many folks. He who is not guilty cast the first stone. Oh idhair, you must be not guilty, I have no doubt you are a nicer person in all regards in all things. Not - the hyprocracy and pretentiousness of your words, are quite revealing.

 

Remind me not to post to any of your threads.

 

 

You must be having a wonderful life if "lifting pictures" pisses you off.

 

Yes it does, and yes my life is wonderful. I draw the line when someone lifts my art without the courtesy of asking, and then taking it out of context for a personal agenda. Does it please you to make the blank assumption above about my life with no context of who I am and what I do? Then please, continue, as I won't mind until you lift my artwork I present here....

[Hard Times]

Hard Times, your sigline image violates the size limit allowed, please adjust accordingly so forum members time while visiting here is expedited.

 

From the FAQ File:

 

Is there a limit to the size of an image I can have in my signature?

 

We ask that you keep your images relatively small. As a rule, please do not exceed 125 x 600 pixels and/or 35k for a signature image. This will ensure that the forums load quickly for all users.

 

 

Your sigline billboard is the following:

size: 57.67 KB (59,051 bytes)

Dimensions: 500 x 282px

 

Thank You

 

Note: This thread is such a train wreck I figured this additional post would fit right into the carnage.

 

 

Thanks for the information 'Arch', I will take it under advisement.

 

[mike169]

Remind me not to post in any of your threads.

Same goes for me. This could have been handled in a much nicer way.

 

You talkin' to me? What would you do if you spent some much time imaging coins, then someone lifted them for their own use and agenda without asking? In fact, after being pissed off, as anyone should be, I PM'ed the OP and asked him not to do this again, and told him next time to ask. In fact, the OP then removed the modified images.

 

Many things could be done much nicer by many folks. He who is not guilty cast the first stone. Oh idhair, you must be not guilty, I have no doubt you are a nicer person in all regards in all things. Not - the hyprocracy and pretentiousness of your words, are quite revealing.

 

Remind me not to post to any of your threads.

 

 

You must be having a wonderful life if "lifting pictures" pisses you off.

 

Yes it does, and yes my life is wonderful. I draw the line when someone lifts my art without the courtesy of asking, and then taking it out of context for a personal agenda. Does it please you to make the blank assumption above about my life with no context of who I am and what I do? Then please, continue, as I won't mind until you lift my artwork I present here....

 

And, what, if I may ask, was the personal agenda? The only agenda I saw was to attempt to demonstrate the difference in grading coins of the same type solely because the coin was of a different variety.

 

Would you have considered it to be a personal agenda if Lee had instead snipped the photo off someone else's website and said the same thing?