AT Toned Peace $ .... well at least NGC thinks so...

[TonerGuy]

Jerseycat asked me to post this once it came back in the bodybag ....

 

I dont really considered this "toned" but NGC thought it was AT. Got it for $30 because its a VAM - there's a small hairpin in the tiara...

 

Obverse...

 

Reverse...

[TomB]

Is your white balance correct? I ask because the entire coin appears to have a thin, light violet or blue cast to it and that would get the coin bagged.

[jerseycat10]

That's too bad it came back in a bag.

 

Not many Peace Dollars with sharp crescent toning!

[TonerGuy]

Is your white balance correct? I ask because the entire coin appears to have a thin, light violet or blue cast to it and that would get the coin bagged.

 

Yes the WB is fine. I had to "enhance" the colors slightly just to show the toning. Otherwise the toning is rather difficult to see.

 

In hand there's nothing that says AT to me about this coin.

[SkyMan]

I agree with NGC. For generic soft toning on a Peace dollar I might expect either a light gold or a very light champagne pink. FROM THE IMAGE the blue/purple looks off to me.

[kryptonitecomics]

Very odd coloring on a peace dollar.....I don't think the coin is market acceptable even if there is a chance it's NT

[TonerGuy]

Pastel blues, pinks and golds arent that unusual on toned Peace $...

 

1923 Obverse

 

1923 Reverse

 

I have little doubt the original coin will end up in an NGC slab...

[kryptonitecomics]

Purple and pink in combination are almost always AT....not 100% of the time but the TPGs know to be careful with those colors hence my statment that the coin isn't market acceptable to NGC.

 

The coin doesn't look to have pastel colors to me and it looks more purple than blue in the image but in hand may look different (thumbs u

 

 

[Arizonadesertrat]

I agree with NGC's call as well.

 

[TonerGuy]

Interesting... no one is commenting on the second coin... So everyone agrees the 2nd 1923 is NT (lets leave out the MA designation - thats too easy of a call) ?

 

And lets see some actual reasons why you all think its AT as opposed to "I agree with NGC" about the first coin.... I can post more pink/gold & blue Peace $ pics if necessary....

 

Share your knowledge of toned Peace $....I would like to hear true diagnostics about the toning.

 

I would like to make this an informational thread....

 

What say you ?

[RWB]

Both of them look too even for natural toning....just an opinion.

[TomB]

Since you asked...I think both look bad. However, as far as I know only the first was rejected by NGC. Also, even though you have stated that the white balance is correct, they just don't feel right in terms of their colors.

[zboyle04]

i like the second one, hard to tell if it is NT or AT

[TonerGuy]

Purple and pink in combination are almost always AT....

 

 

So why isnt this coin AT ? To me this is very suspect toning due to the pink & violet combination you discuss as well as the blotchiness of the toning... But I dont know Roosie's so I could not form a true opinion. Why do you believe it to be NT other than NGC gave it a stamp of approval ?

 

 

Or how about this coin in the link below... again blotchy blue/violet/pink/dark green on a golden bed....

 

Again to me this toning looks suspect... But again I dont know Roosies.

 

I think that unless you have seen hundreds-thousands of examples toning of a particular series its difficult to say what is and what isnt AT...

 

Another toned Roosie....

 

The next toned Roosie has a look that seems to me the toning has been applied. Again it has a blotchy look but there are breaks in the toning where it is almost a hard line. What would explain the toning just breaking like that ? Even with tape toning its never quite so dramatic... And how does the progression of colors happen like that as well ?

 

 

Another toned Roosie...

 

Or is it that these are just "market acceptable" now so they get slabbed ?

[TomB]

The Roosevelts look like they came from US Mint sets of the era or, depending upon how they look in-hand, they might have instead come from Whitman style folders. Roosevelts with that appearance aren't all that unusual.

[TonerGuy]

The Roosevelts look like they came from US Mint sets of the era or, depending upon how they look in-hand, they might have instead come from Whitman style folders. Roosevelts with that appearance aren't all that unusual.

 

Thats kind of my point... I dont know Roosies. Different colors are common on different coins. Like Krypto indicated pink/violet/blue seems to say AT but not apparently on Roosies. The toning on the first coin - if that was on a Peace $ 99 out of a 100 times its coming back in a bag...

 

I have collected toned Peace $ for more than a decade and have looked at thousands of different toning examples - everything from bad dark russet toning to beautiful pastels and swirling colors in an effort to learn. I know which environments tone Peace $ in certain ways - down to the type of album. I dont want to call myself an expert in toned Peace $ because I still dont understand the diagnostics of toning completely. But I can tell the differences in album, envelope and bag toning. I can almost tell you how and where the coin was stored to produce certain colors and results. I do understand the "look" for toned Peace $.

 

But when it comes to other series, I havent seen enough toned Roosies, Washington Quarters or Franklin Halves to be able to spot AT from NT -- other than saying - "gee that color just doesnt look right" - as I did here.

 

Can anyone explain how the breaks in the last coin developed on the reverse ? Quite honestly I would pass on a coin like that thinking it would never grade and have lost money because of it. I would like to expand into other series but its gotten scary with the TPGs tightening down so much on the idea of MA and not MA instead of AT vs. NT.

 

Thanks for any help anyone can provide....

[physics-fan3.14]

TonerGuy, the Roosies you posted I would have described as thus:

 

1.) Definitely NT. I've seen that look many times before, and is characteristic of mint sets in 1956-1958. You'll often get blues, maroon, red, and such colors.

 

2.) Questionable. I wouldn't buy it, but I could see where someone might. Better pictures or seeing it in hand might convince me either way.

 

3.) I wouldn't touch that dime. Looks AT all the way to me. Too many random, very unusual colors splashed across the coin, with unusual toning breaks. Electric blue and lime green are both very unusual colors, and I've never seen a dime with that toning pattern.

[TomB]

We have different opinions on these coins, but I will state upfront that the saturation of the images appears to be more than I would accept if I were doing the images and that my interpretation of the images takes that into account. I don't think any of the three is wildly attractive; but I've seen coins similar to the first come out of US Mint sets of the date, the second one is kind of ugly to me and might have been from a Whitman style holder while the third has reverse toning that also reminds me of splotchy patterns I have seen from US Mint set coins.

 

In truth, I wouldn't buy any of the three because I don't find them attractive enough. I also am basing all of my opinions on how I think the coins look in-hand because I do not trust the images entirely.

[TonerGuy]

I think the images are quite accurate. The WB didn't seem off. Perhaps the saturation was increased a little to bring out the color but overall I would pass on all 3 because I don't mint set toning or Roosies.

 

I can tell you that violet-purple isn't rare on Peace $. I've seen and have owned sets in WR albums where it occurs but not usually with pink. Usually with blues and russets and only around the rims though. Never blotchy and almost never across the entire diameter. But that might be due to the small size of a dime and the flow of sulphur across a small area.

 

I also think that Peace $ are more prone to rim toning than any other type with the darkest colors at the rim. Could it be because the surface is rougher than other coins and hence no PL examples ? I've never seen a PL Peace $.

 

 

[Keigwin]

I think the images are quite accurate. The WB didn't seem off. Perhaps the saturation was increased a little to bring out the color but overall I would pass on all 3 because I don't mint set toning or Roosies.

 

I can tell you that violet-purple isn't rare on Peace $. I've seen and have owned sets in WR albums where it occurs but not usually with pink. Usually with blues and russets and only around the rims though. Never blotchy and almost never across the entire diameter. But that might be due to the small size of a dime and the flow of sulphur across a small area.

 

I also think that Peace $ are more prone to rim toning than any other type with the darkest colors at the rim. Could it be because the surface is rougher than other coins and hence no PL examples ? I've never seen a PL Peace $.

I am not as experienced, perhaps. I have only built one PCGS gem set of Peace dollars, though it had some top pops and took more than several years. Along the way I looked at lots of examples. Somehow I missed all the violet and purple ones.

 

I can't recall any attractively toned Peace dollars. I am sure they are out there. I just think it is a highly unusual find, not at all like attractively toned Morgans. Most toned Peace dollars appear splotchy and brown. They didn't benefit from the same storage environment as Morgans and silver composition was likely different.

Lance.

[TonerGuy]

Somehow I missed all the violet and purple ones.

 

I can't recall any attractively toned Peace dollars. I am sure they are out there. I just think it is a highly unusual find, not at all like attractively toned Morgans. Most toned Peace dollars appear splotchy and brown. They didn't benefit from the same storage environment as Morgans and silver composition was likely different.

Lance.

 

Here's an example of violet/purple rim toning I was speaking of. Its not common but I have seen this toning on several examples of different dates and mint marks...And I guess it depends on your idea of attractive. You cant compare Peace $ to Morgans in regards to toning but I find this coin to be very attractive...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-s-PCGS-MS63-Rainbow-Toned-Key-Date-Peace-Dollar-/320657119416?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item4aa8a758b8

[TomB]

The coin sold by , the one you just linked, looks quite attractive to me. However, it doesn't look like any of the coins you posted; was it supposed to look quite similar?

[TonerGuy]

The coin sold by , the one you just linked, looks quite attractive to me. However, it doesn't look like any of the coins you posted; was it supposed to look quite similar?

 

No it was just an example of violet/purple rim toning on a Peace $... read my posts above.

[thecoinczar]

I'm liking that 1928 S peace dollar also. Those iridescent hues are gorgeous. The price is a little out of my range right now, but I wouldn't hesitate to add to my collection if I had the opportunity.

[Rigo-migration]

Gotta love those Roosies. Isn't there a difference also on the way a coin tones depending on the size of a coin? I mean, a Rossie toning about the same time as a Peace will be overwhelmed by the toning process and so developing stronger colors as such coins pictured. The peace will take a much longer reaction for the nice toning to appear? Besides, I've never seen a purple/pink NTed Peace dollar like that.

[kryptonitecomics]

Purple and pink in combination are almost always AT....

 

 

So why isnt this coin AT ? To me this is very suspect toning due to the pink & violet combination you discuss as well as the blotchiness of the toning... But I dont know Roosie's so I could not form a true opinion. Why do you believe it to be NT other than NGC gave it a stamp of approval ?

 

 

Or how about this coin in the link below... again blotchy blue/violet/pink/dark green on a golden bed....

 

Again to me this toning looks suspect... But again I dont know Roosies.

 

I think that unless you have seen hundreds-thousands of examples toning of a particular series its difficult to say what is and what isnt AT...

 

Another toned Roosie....

 

The next toned Roosie has a look that seems to me the toning has been applied. Again it has a blotchy look but there are breaks in the toning where it is almost a hard line. What would explain the toning just breaking like that ? Even with tape toning its never quite so dramatic... And how does the progression of colors happen like that as well ?

 

 

Another toned Roosie...

 

Or is it that these are just "market acceptable" now so they get slabbed ?

 

 

Hence the reason I said "almost always"...and not pink and purple are a "always" an indicator and notice the other colors mixed in...what I say pink and purple I am usually referring to those being the only colors so I could have been more clear. As other pointed out....the roosies all have a known look about then from most likely being in mint sets...at least #1 & #3 do to me and since I have #1 in hand I can tell you it looks 100% NT to me especially based on the date and knowing what I have pulled out of 1956 double mint sets.

 

I think all any of us can do is try to go by the images and provide opinions based on our experience which would of course differ from yours. That doesn't make you wrong and us right or vice versa....for me I simply state that based on what I see NGC was right to question the toning....I do not see enough in the images to make me come out and label them 100% AT...just somewhat questionable.