New memember qustion help grading Morgan

[acan451]

Greetings everyone

This is my first on this form and I am looking for help improving my grading sills.

here are some of my Morgans that I could use help with.

I will start with a few and if it's OK will post more.

Thank you all

Alan

[mtnstyne]

I'll be first to welcome you and give my opinions. I am fairly new at this in comparision but I only focus on morgans so I feel as though I have gotten fairly competent with them.

 

1886: Can't tell anything about luster from the pictures/scans (my guess is they are scans). Surfaces look very nice and I would say that it could grade MS65; however, without seeing the luster of the coin I would be concerned that it may have been dipped. Additional pictures in natural light would be more revealing.

 

1885: Reverse looks very clean with strong strike. The obverse picture is difficult to see, it looks flat and AU wear in the hair. It also has a nasty bag mark on the focus area of the cheak. I would say this one could be anywhere from AU53-MS62.

 

Now let's see what the real experts say.

[cpm9ball]

Welcome to the neighborhood, Alan!

 

1886: I see what looks like a little bit of wear in the hair above her forehead which might knock it down a bit. I wouldn't blame this on a weak strike because you would ordinarily see such loss of detail on the hair above the ear, and for this coin, that detail is quite good. It looks like it has been dipped one too many times in the well since there appears to be a total absence of luster. Is this a scan or a photo? As was mentioned, scans do not show luster well. I'll say AU58.

 

1885: Again, you have loss of detail in her hair, but this time the eagle's breast is well formed. If it were a weak strike, you should also see a lack of detail on the eagle. It looks like the photo might be slightly out of focus, so maybe this is the cause for the loss of detail. With the dings on her face, I'd guess MS62. Is this an ACG slab? What did they grade it? MS65?

 

Chris

 

PS. I'm no professional, either!

[Tonto-migration]

I'll take a stab at it. I would say the 1886 could grade at MS64 and the 1885 could grade MS62. These are real nice morgans, i do like the slight toning on the 1885.

[acan451]

Thanks for the Welcome, and the advice.

Both coins do have good luster in the hand, lost in pictures.

cpm9ball you are very good it is an ACG.

I buy most of my coins unslabbed but some times

I go by the saying, (Buy the coin not the holder) and some times I get lucky.

One more thing, could please explain what dipped means.

I am very happy to have found this form and look forward to many good

conversations with all of you. I will post more coins when time allows.

I have a very cool mint error Morgan to share with you all,

Thanks to all for the great advice.

[johnny9434]

hi alan, welcome to the forums. nice morgan dollars by the way. hey, that 1885 on the reverse looks like it has a slight die crack on it from the o in one thru the star to the u in united. or am i seeing things?

[Tonto-migration]

By the way what did ACG grade it ?

[Tonto-migration]

Acan451 Asked "could please explain what dipped means?" It simply means a coin that has been dipped in a cleaning solution to bring back the luster the coin had when struck from the mint. I would recommend never doing this. And i personally would never buy a coin that had been "dipped".

[cpm9ball]

hi alan, welcome to the forums. nice morgan dollars by the way. hey, that 1885 on the reverse looks like it has a slight die crack on it from the o in one thru the star to the u in united. or am i seeing things?

 

No, you're not seeing things. Die cracks on Morgans are very common. You've got to remember that the dies are striking the planchets with 150 tons of pressure per square inch. I have an 1899-O that has a crack that makes a complete circle through the legend and the eagle's wingtips. Cracks don't add any value as a variety and don't warrant attribution unless there is metal displacement. However, they are helpful in determining die state. The most famous die crack is the 1888-O "Scarface".

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

 

I have a very cool mint error Morgan to share with you all,

Thanks to all for the great advice.

 

I'm anxious to see your error!

 

Chris

[acan451]

Hey johnny9434 you have a good eye

I never noticed that before.There is also a slight die crack from R in dollar to the star that comes after it.

Please understand, I am a rookie collector and still learning about coins,

and then there's VAM errors and all that go along with it.

But now that I am retired I have Moore time to read and learn.

I have a 1878 Morgan with a major filled die error it has taken alto of time trying to learn about that coin. The coin says

IN GOW W T.

Could my 1885 be a Vam of some kind.

Thank you all for the warm greetings. and all the advice .

By the way ACN gave it a MS-63.

[acan451]

OK Chris

I will upload pictures now there not great, but give a good view of the error

Sorry I got my coins confused it's a 1921 P Morgan

[cpm9ball]

Hey johnny9434 you have a good eye

I never noticed that before.There is also a slight die crack from R in dollar to the star that comes after it.

Please understand, I am a rookie collector and still learning about coins,

and then there's VAM errors and all that go along with it.

But now that I am retired I have Moore time to read and learn.

I have a 1878 Morgan with a major filled die error it has taken alto of time trying to learn about that coin. The coin says

IN GOW W T.

Could my 1885 be a Vam of some kind.

Thank you all for the warm greetings. and all the advice .

By the way ACN gave it a MS-63.

 

All Morgans are VAM's. VAM-1 is usually assigned to a normal die.

 

Is your 1878 an 8TF, 7TF or 7 over 8TF? It sounds like it may be a grease filled die, but that in itself doesn't warrant an attribution. Can you post photos?

 

Alan, here is a quick 25c lesson on Morgan terminology:

 

The obverse stars on the left are numbered 1-7 in clockwise order beginning nearest the date; the stars on the right are numbered 1-6 in counterclockwise order beginning nearest the date.

 

The eagle's tailfeathers are numbered 1-8 (1878) or 1-7 (all other years) beginning from right to left.

 

Chris

 

[acan451]

It's a very interesting mint error.

I have not been able to find another one.

Cheers

Alan

[cpm9ball]

VAMWorld only lists 3 grease-filled dies for the 21-P, but those are only single letters. You just might have a discovery coin there! You might want to think about sending it to leroy Van Allen for attribution. You might also want to check it for "Infrequent Reeding". There are 15 "Top 100" VAM's for infrequent reeding.

 

Chris

[acan451]

Thanks Chris

I was thinking about that myself but am not sure how to do this.

Any advice?

I hope I am not being a bother with all these questions.

Cheers

Alan

[cpm9ball]

It's no problem at all, Alan.

 

You might want to print a copy of this. You can access this information from the Home page at VAMWorld.

 

Chris

 

GUIDELINES FOR THINGS LISTED AS DIE VARIETIES

 

 

 

By Leroy Van Allen

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

•Die doubling on the devices, letters stars and date digits have to be readily visible using a 7X or 10X hand magnifying glass that the average collector uses at coin shows and shops when searching for die varieties. A 20X or 30X stereo microscope is useful to check die doubling but not reason enough to list doubling unless visible with hand magnifying glass.Die

•Slight die doubling on a few obverse stars or a few reverse wreath leaves are generally too minor to list by themselves as they are fairly common. Doubling has to be on all left or right stars to list or on most of left or right wreath leaf clusters to list.

•Die chips, breaks, scratches & gouges have to be readily visible to the naked eye to list. Tiny die chips are very common as dies wore out from use. Likewise, die breaks to be listed have to wide & high chunks out of the die and visible to the naked eye and not just thin shallow die cracks. Thin, shallow die cracks are extremely common as dies wore out & we don't list them.

•Scratches are fairly thin and high lines while gouges are wide and high bars. They have to be long enough to be readily visible to the naked eye.

•Scratches and gouges in the denticles are generally not listed because they are well hidden and not visible to the naked eye.

•Denticles, date and stars that have shiny edges that have been pushed in and indented occur when the coin was struck and then pushed out of the collar, or die slid sideways during striking of a coin. A striking error that we don't list - we only list die varieties.

•Flat, shiny, top doubling on edges of obverse or reverse motto or legend letters or date and stars is from machine doubling. It occurs when there is looseness in the coin press mechanism and dies bounce slightly during the striking of the coin. It is most common on the reverse for the Morgan dollar and on the obverse for the Peace dollar. Machine doubling tends to reduce the original design. Die doubling has dull, rounded surfaces. It enlarges the original design. Machine doubling isn't listed since it isn't a die variety.

•Tiny thin, short raised lines on the device not visible to the naked eye aren't something listed separately. They might be useful as a die marker however, if needed.

•Fine thin polishing lines in Liberty's head, on the eagle, or wreaths are extremely common on Morgan dollars and are generally not visible to the naked eye. Therefore, they aren't something that is listed. Only list those that are unusually heavy & thick. Sometimes used as die markers however.

•Polishing lines have to be over much of the fields and visible to the naked eye or extremely bold in the device to list. Isolated die polishing lines in fields aren't listed as die varieties by themselves. Can be used as die markers if needed.

•Polishing roughness in wreath bow & leaves is also very common and generally not visible to the naked eye as they are well hidden. So it isn't listed. Polishing roughness can occur around the legend letters causing a rough outline and parts of the letters that don't follow the letters exactly. It isn't die doubling, which follows the letter shape exactly. Generally, the polishing roughness around the letters is not listed unless it is very severe.

•Rim cud die breaks that don't extend through the denticles into the field aren't listed. Retained cuds can be listed and are formed when a die crack extends rim to rim with some displacement of the field.

•A displaced field die break can be listed if a die crack has the adjacent field raised or tilted to form a different angle of the flat field visible to the naked eye.

•Missing design elements can be listed from over polishing if visible to the naked eye.

•Common die clash marks that aren't letters aren't listed (clash marks with no letter transfer). Only clashed letters on obverse and reverse are listed. An exception is on Peace dollars that can have a clashed spike up from the eagles' right shoulder from the obverse back of Liberty's head and neck. Shorter single spikes aren't listed unless they are long enough to reach UN. Double and triple clashed spikes are listed.

 

Updated January 15, 2009

 

It is highly recommended that potential new varieties be vetted through the VAMWorld discussion board before submission to Leroy Van Allen. This process will make Leroy's task much easier and will save everyone time and money in the process. Following is an update to Leroy's submission policy that was mailed out on January 15, 2009.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It is with some regret that there is a change of policy for submitting coins for examination.

 

After over 40 yrs of not charging a fee for examination of possible new varieties, it is changed to $5 per coin effective 1 Feb 2009. Many of you have already been sending that equivalent amount for a number of years, which I thank you.

 

A low percentage of the coins submitted in recent years have been new varieties. New varieties listed for 2008 were less than 2007 which was less than 2006. Most coins have been known varieties or had features pointed out that were too minor to list. It takes longer to actually prepare a new listing with a description & photos to be made than to attribute known varieties. Those submitting a new variety will still receive the description & photos(s). The examination fee will be $5 per coin for any coin submitted no matter if it turns out to be a known variety, features too minor to list or a new variety. Return postage is still also required. A limit is requested of a maximum of 10 coins per package or in one month, unless special permission is granted for a larger submittal, so as to not delay too much the examination of other packages.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

Leroy Van Allen

PO Box 196

Sidney, OH 45365

 

[acan451]

Hey Chris

I am taking your advice, but Bobby suggested I post it on US coins.

So I did just to see what kind of reaction I would get.

While I arrange to to contact to Mr Van Allen

Thank you for all the work you did for me at VAM world.

That was very kind of you .

Look forward to talking with you soon

Cheers

Alan

[acan451]

Hi Chris

So I send my coin to

Leroy Van Allen

PO Box 196

Sidney, OH 45365

What I don't know is how to pay, can I send a money order and if so how will I know how much to send for return mailing charges

Cheers

Alan

[cpm9ball]

Hi Chris

So I send my coin to

Leroy Van Allen

PO Box 196

Sidney, OH 45365

What I don't know is how to pay, can I send a money order and if so how will I know how much to send for return mailing charges

Cheers

Alan

 

Include a postal money order for $10. If it's too much, he'll refund the difference. He has done that with me in the past.

 

Be sure to be very specific in identifying what you want him to look for on the coin, grease-filled die missing "e Trust" on reverse. One thing that, I'm sure, must be very irritating to him is when he receives a coin with, "Is this a VAM?" without any explanation.

 

Chris

[acan451]

Thanks Chris

I appreciate that very much

Cheers

Alan

[acan451]

Thanks Chris

I appreciate that very much

Cheers

Alan

[Tonto-migration]

Acan451 did you just recently purchase this coin on E-bay? Seems like i seen this one about a week ago.

[acan451]

No I have had it for a few months

Maybe on another form

Cheers

Alan