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Went to dealer day at Long Beach and....

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I couldnt believe the premiums almost all the dealers were asking for certified toned coins of all types.

 

Jeffs for 4-5x sheet, Lincolns for 5-6x sheet, WLH 3-5x for sheet, Peace $ for 2-10x sheet.

 

And none of the prices seemed to tied to the grade. There was a 27-S Peace $ in a PCGS holder graded MS64 but looked high end MS63 with some nice color (not monster) and the dealer wanted 2x MS64 money. The coin at MS63 is a $400-$500 coin.

 

First time I went to a show and came home empty handed....

 

 

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There was a 27-S Peace $ in a PCGS holder graded MS64 but looked high end MS63 with some nice color (not monster) and the dealer wanted 2x MS64 money. The coin at MS63 is a $400-$500 coin.

Having assembled multiple complete Peace dollar sets over the years, in my opinion, even $500 would be too cheap for a 1927-S in TRUE MS-63. Too many certified 1927-Ss are overgraded in slabs, but one that is legitimately at that grade should be worth quite a bit more than $500.

 

At MS-63 and above, 1927-S is much tougher than price guides would have you believe, and so is 1928-S.

 

Sorry your show was not successful :( .

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Fair enough James let's say it was an $800 MS63. I was merely commenting on the premiums being asked for by dealers for toned coins. Not the value of a true MS63 27-S Peace $.

 

As a collector, I can see how some people are getting buried in toned coins.

 

Suprisingly though there were few toned dealers there.

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Welcome to my world lol

 

 

I know the prices being asked and I know the true market value of these coins as well as anyone and it's pretty typical for me to see coins prices at 2 to 3 times what there worth and I am not talking grey sheet but rather full blown retail and toning premium then double that price. Example...I see an 1880-S in PCGS MS63 with a small amount of attractive color. I could possibly get say $100 to $125 for it on ebay which is already like a 3X premium for the color.....dealer ask price is $250 to $300. I truly believe that most of the dealers selling toned coins have no clue what the market value is and yes they certainly don't base their asking price on the number on the holder...they simply know that toners bring premium prices so they price their coins from thin air or worse yet...they pay a crazy price above market to get them and then they tack on their needed profit margains and then you have an 80-S in MS63 with a rainbow crescent priced at $500.

 

I see it at every show and I even talk to these dealers about how they are pricing their coins to get insight and sometime I share what I could sell the coin for on say Ebay and they are shocked at the difference in prices. I never tell them what they should sell them for as it's not my place but on occasion when they quote me a price for a mediocre coin I will pull out a monster toned Morgan that I got for less than their asking price for a plane jane toner just so they can see the potential flaws in their pricing structure hm

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In the specific case fo toned Peace dollars, a large premium is often justified. These coins are legitimately rare with any real color. That said, most other coin types are not rare enough to justify the huge spreads they sometimes command. What were the prices like for other coins that you saw?

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In the specific case fo toned Peace dollars, a large premium is often justified. These coins are legitimately rare with any real color. That said, most other coin types are not rare enough to justify the huge spreads they sometimes command. What were the prices like for other coins that you saw?

 

Anywhere between $300-$900 for MS63-67 non-FS Jeffs

 

$300-$600 for MS63-66RB Lincolns

 

$600 to $1200 for MS64-66 WLHs

 

And actually the Peace $ had the lowest premiums - several were what I thought were decently priced toned MS Peace $ were available but they were all common dates.

 

Again I tend to agree with Kryptonite - I just dont think show dealers have a realistic idea of what toners really sell for on Ebay.

 

Several years ago there were more dealers that specialized in toned coins. I know we lost one in Mike DeFalco. Now there are only a few. I wish I could think of toned coins as widgets and sell them. There is definitely a market for a toned dealer with knowledge and reasonable prices.

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also with the nutty prices dealers are offering their average toners for

 

i sometimes offer these specific dealers a somewhat nicer toner of the same grade and type at 50% or even much less!! of their asking prices and never has the same dealer bought the coin offered

 

hm

 

this tells me all i need to know

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All very interesting stuff... I will be attending starting first thing tomorrow morning at LB. One thing that is fairly certain, that is the dealers who appear to be clueless about asking price and/or are asking way too much for a given item usually have a bit of room and if they want to move the coin they are generally open to serious and fair offers.

 

What I REALLY like about going to the shows is that you can see the coin in person, see the colors and the luster for what they really are - or aren't.

 

Something I have noticed lately is that the ability to find fresh, raw gem quality top 5%ers is diminished. And when you do find them after looking everywhere and then submit them to the whim or mood of the graders that look at them the day they are graded and weigh that effort against the grades that you get back, it becomes a daunting task. It is one thing to see nicely toned certified pieces that are spewed through the auction circuit and bounced through several eBay sellers then back to dealer show cases, slabs all scratched up - but finding and creating top shelf pieces that have never been on the market, I'm talking about colorful gems that have literally been sitting around getting toned for decades - these are the coins I am willing to pay more for or ask more for. One has to do this 20+ times to get a real stunner back it seems.

 

I agree that some dealers appear to have no exposure to what toners from all series are trading for day in/day out on eBay, but some series are blooming with regard to prices realized, while others are getting saturated. For instance, I have noticed some Jefferson toners have been selling on eBay over the last 18 months for up to 10-20x retail (depending on condition and color of course). I temper this by saying that some MS65 or 66 Jeffs go for $20-40, but I think this series is being looked at hard by color specialists, and market prices for high-end toners may be in a state of transition for this series. Just my opinion. Peace and WLH's are always hard to find it seems.

 

While it may be difficult for some show dealers to be clued in on what the market is for Morgans (for example), a buyer with a little knowledge can ascertain right away if the coin itself is a real stunner - being able to hold it right there.

 

I hope I don't come back empty handed.

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The toned coin market really started to awaken in the late 1990s and then around 2002 got simply too hot for me to do much acquisition. I still buy nicely toned coins if they are reasonably priced, but there are precious few on the floor that meet this requirement. There are also relatively few terrific toned coins out there, which is in stark contrast to the late 1990s to early 2000s when they started to come out of the woodwork. Thankfully, wonderfully toned type does not carry the same type of percentage markup as modern series carry.

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I buy toned coins, primarily. And in most cases, did not experience anything like what you did with respect to prices.

 

How many toned Jeffs, Lincolns and Peace $ did you buy ? And when will they be available on your site. I'm eager to see your toned NEWPs.

 

Heading back down today... Anyone else going and wanna meet up ?

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I buy toned coins, primarily. And in most cases, did not experience anything like what you did with respect to prices.

 

Actually, I did experience something of what TonerGuy said. There was some high prices being asked in some cases.

 

Some examples:

 

Very nice 1829/30 Bust Dime MS64 1.8X

XF 23-S SLQ about 1.8X

1875 Seated Half in MS62 asking near MS64 money etc etc.

 

Each of these coins were pretty nice so there ya go. I must point out this was NOT on dealer day but Thursday.

 

jom

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This is a funny market. Some segments of are slow from what I understand, and yet the coins that I want are high priced and the material that is offered is disappointing. Usually when prices are strong, there is a decent selection, but I’m not finding that to be the case.

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I applaud anyone who walked away empty handed . The collector community as a whole establishes Market Prices. Not any one or combination of Dealers. Just Say No .

 

Well, I did not walk away empty handed on Friday, but I did walk away from many tables empty handed where dealers had some nice coins because the price was a bit steep.

 

One of the tables I walked away from (dealer was Nick I believe from Back East, who I had traded with in past years) because the ask was just a bit too much for me. He had a beautiful multicolored '48-D Jefferson in PCGS MS66. Price was marked $500 and was one of the top 20 nicest Jeffs I had ever seen, said he would sell for $400, but the cool thing about his offer was he said buy back was $360 for as long as I owned it and he was still alive, or -10%, which I thought was refreshing. That offer stood for anything in his inventory. He would even put it in writing. The coin was truly stunning, but I did not want to lock up a good portion of spending cash when I had many more aisles to go down.

 

I did spend a considerable amount of time and a small pile of cash at Dennis King's table... toned Jeffs and Lincolns both raw and certified. Met him for the first time and found him to be knowledgeable and fair regarding the pricing of toned coins, as well as having some really nice pieces. He was willing to take some time with me and his sincerity and integrity shows. He had some of those jaw dropping Morgans too that he warned were expensive, and they were, but I have to say they were some of the nicest toners that you would find anywhere, top 2%ers to be sure. I will look for him again in June at LB. I will post some of my picks from his table shortly.

 

Had an interesting discussion with Bob Campbell too, former ANA president and toned coin guru - he has some zingers.

 

All in all my day was fruitful and am very glad I went.

 

 

 

 

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I witnessed most dealers being very busy, especially those selling collector grade coins. At every table I stopped at I asked how business was, and all but a few said they were doing quite well. Dealer attendance seemed high and the general crowd was decent up until about 3pm when it started thinning out. I only attended on Friday but got there at 11am and stayed until 7pm.

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It was like that on Saturday as well. However, there were a LOT of empty tables near the front. My guess as many dealers couldn't make it due to the storms back east. However, on Saturday over the PA they announced they had one of the larger attended shows. I guess they actually ran out of decals/stickers (which shows you paid to get in) and they always order the same number. So attendance was, in fact, up.

 

Truthteller made a good point over at ATS about how some tables up front were empty whereas many local dealers had got far cheaper tables in back. I made a point of hitting ALL the tables during my rounds today. There is always complaints about how much they are charging for some of the "prime" tables...I wonder how this show will do in the future.

 

I personally had one of my best shows in a LONG time...hopefully I'll have pics soon. :devil:

 

jom

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The Heritage auction appears to be strong at Long Beach, although there have been some shocking underbids for some nice pieces.... I can't see spending the coin to fly out to LB given the overall costs, and they seem to be the most expensive show for buyers from the street. $8 admission charge will limit who comes in. Why go when you can do the Heritage auction live online?

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The Heritage auction appears to be strong at Long Beach, although there have been some shocking underbids for some nice pieces.... I can't see spending the coin to fly out to LB given the overall costs, and they seem to be the most expensive show for buyers from the street. $8 admission charge will limit who comes in. Why go when you can do the Heritage auction live online?

 

I would think compared to the airplane ticket and the hotel room the show expenses would be minimal and probably irrelevant. But you are correct if you can bid online why go to the show? However (and this is a problem I've always had) you can't actually view the coin in hand before you bid if you don't attend the show. This is the one reason I almost never bid in an auction outside of Long Beach (which is near where I live).

 

jom

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