PNG votes to repeal stricter ban on coin doctoring

[James_OldeTowne]

Washing a coin with soap and water is doctoring...it's just a (currently) market acceptable form of doctoring.

 

Therein lies the problem. It is impossible to create a written definition of market acceptability since the market itself is constantly changing.

Furthermore, many coins that have been "merely" soap-and-watered look awful afterwards. An old bust half with delightful, grungy, gritty dirt embedded in the crevices never does look quite right after a soap-and-water bath.

 

However, I'd agree that soap-and-water is very near that fuzzy line between cleaning and conservation. It especially depends on what kind of "soap" is being used. Grandma's Lye Soap can be disastrous - it doesn't suds, and doesn't foam!

 

[Barry-migration]

But toning is just lying on the surface of a coin, not part of the coin, so dipping it to remove that which is lying on top of the coin also isn't doctoring.

 

Toning is not lying on the surface. It IS the surface - a few melcules thick of silver sulfide, for example. Removing it removes some of the metal, now combined with whatever contaminant cause the toning.

[Tradedollarnut]

Washing a coin with soap and water is doctoring...it's just a (currently) market acceptable form of doctoring.

 

Therein lies the problem. It is impossible to create a written definition of market acceptability since the market itself is constantly changing.

 

Oh, puh-leeze.

[Tradedollarnut]

Under Greg's definition, washing a coin with soap and water is doctoring. Thus, he's full of mess.

 

Must have hit a hypocritical nerve with you. Don't worry Bruce, I'll suggest a new definition of coin doctoring for the PNG: It's only doctoring when someone else does it.

 

I'm curious - why do you have to be such an to make your not so subtle points?

[gmarguli]

Under Greg's definition, washing a coin with soap and water is doctoring. Thus, he's full of mess.

 

Must have hit a hypocritical nerve with you. Don't worry Bruce, I'll suggest a new definition of coin doctoring for the PNG: It's only doctoring when someone else does it.

 

I'm curious - why do you have to be such an to make your not so subtle points?

 

Because some people are too dense to get those not so subtle points. For example, one person likes to draw imaginary lines when it comes to doctoring. This person makes money off the fear of doctoring. This same person rationalizes certain types of doctoring (i.e. the ones they do) to be OK, but not other types.

 

Fact: You are a coin doctor - just on a lesser scale that many others. You admitted to trying to alter the surfaces of a coin. I'm fine with this. Why aren't you? I'm surprised you're getting so hostile over my pointing out that you readily admitted to trying to doctor a coin.

[$ilverHawk]

Nice YouTube link. I can really appreciate the intricate chord changes.

 

Definitely American Idol material.

 

Where can I buy that lye soap?

[Michael Ellis-migration]

Ditto. Such loosely worded language does nothing more than confuse collectors and throw gasoline on a fire that's already out of control. For that matter, "coin doctor" is a phrase that absolutely should not appear in any such definition. It's a phrase that's only used to invoke an emotional reaction.

 

Rather, a useful definition should discuss degrees of alteration of coins, and at what level such alteration is acceptable.

 

I personally think the PNG is one of the most useless organizations in numismatic existence, but numerous members are extremely valuable members of the numismatic community, and shouldn't have to be burdened by certain ridiculous PNG activities, such as putting forth frivolous definitions like that one.

 

For decades I have used the following description to define what is and what is not acceptable in cleaning/curating any metallic numismatic item:

 

"The only activity that is acceptable when it comes to cleaning or curating coins and other metallic numismatic objects is the removal of contaminants from the surface to put a coin in its highest state of preservation."

 

That is why we say leave it to the professionals!

 

Much of the time acetone is the only acceptable means that satisfies this definition. However, there are many instances where the use of acetone is more harmful than good! Again, it is best to leave it to the professionals.

 

When I say professionals, I do not mean coin doctors! I mean let someone who has enough years experience with acetone and coins to know what can or cannot be exposed to acetone. In most cases, acetone is the only acceptable liquid, cream, dip, chemical, etc.

 

Soap in water is usually not acceptable at all! Most of the time soap and water will make a coin looked cleaned. Even worse, the dirt you are removing from the coin is often full of grit which is abrasive and can and does hairline the item. My suggestion is use soap and water only on new coins that have liquid contaminants on it like if it just fell in mayonaise or something! Personally, I never use soap and water. Plain water run over the surface of such a contaminated coin but never with soap or use of pressure.

 

Every time a coin is "dipped" in popular coin cleaners like "jeweluster" or "MS70" some of the surface of the coin is removed! Again, leave it to the professionals. Avoid dipping if at all possible. If you have to dip a coin, try using these cleaners diluted down with filtered water.

 

Having said all the above, sometimes it is necessary to clean a coin! This does not mean the desired affect is to make your coin look better though it often times does. It becomes necessary when a coin is caked in PVC, corrosion or other heavy duty contaminants.

 

Having said all the above, much of the time when that "mandatory curating" takes place, your coin will still looked cleaned or altered in some way. But that is okay! You have prevented further damage to the coin so it will be around much longer. Just don't expect it to be "straight graded" at any knowledgable, respected third party grading service. Many great rarities have crossed this threshold and still sell for phenomenal sums of money! Which begs to ask the question, "why are so many truly rare coins neglected and not permitted to be in collections just because they have been cleaned?" That cleaning is often what saved that coin's life!

 

 

 

[Michael Ellis-migration]

But toning is just lying on the surface of a coin, not part of the coin, so dipping it to remove that which is lying on top of the coin also isn't doctoring.

 

Toning is not lying on the surface. It IS the surface - a few melcules thick of silver sulfide, for example. Removing it removes some of the metal, now combined with whatever contaminant cause the toning.

 

So true! Again, leave the toned coins to the professionals. If a coin is genuinely toned deep enough, dipping it will totally ruin the coin. Like it or not, toning is serious contamination to the surface of the coin! That does not mean genuinely (and most artificially) toned coins are not collectible. It is a hobby and hobbies should be fun. Collect what you want to collect!

[Oldtrader3]

Personally, I have noticed that even FDA grade acetone will often change the color of copper that has some RB or BN toning (probably salts and oils from human fingers). I had a FE variety cent that was in an AU net graded holder and I never could decide exactly what the coin doctor had done to it (tiny bit of putty in scraped 2mm spot).

 

I soaked the coin in acetone for 48 hours and got the doctor's spot off but the acetone did changed to toning on the coin surface to a lighter brown (still brown). I think copper is more likely to change color with acetone. I have not had issues with MS silver coins though.

[$ilverHawk]

Acetone is a polar Carboxyl (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen) solvent. It does not have any mineral component that could oxidize and cause a change in color on a coin. It can remove organic contaminants and is widely used as a degreaser.

 

Any observable color change on a coin would be due to the removal of organic contaminants. An acetone wash would simply remove organic (carbon based) contaminants from the coin.

 

Any lighter apperance of color is due to the removal of the organic contaminants.

 

There is absolutely no chemical interaction possible with acetone regarding elemental gold, silver or copper.

 

All of these statements come from elementary chemistry, a little research and most importantly--experience in using acxetone on various coins.

 

I've used the practice of acetone washing on raw coins dozens of times and have never observed any color change.

 

Carl