Buying decision

[Walkerfan]

I've got a good question for you guys: What if a certain rare coin, which is 3x as expensive in MS 65 as it is in MS 64, as is often the case, and it is a condition rarity was found in MS 64 by you. It was an absolutely fantastic piece---better than some/alot of 65s but it was twice the price of a MS 64.

 

Would you buy it and think you got a heck of a nice coin that was better than many 65s and 33% bellow 65 price and could be regraded or would you think that until it is in a 65 holder that it's wishful thinking and NOT worth double 64 price??

[Dcoin]

I think a big part of your question is "How does the 65 fit into your budget"? If you are going to blow your yearly budget- let say- it may not be worth it in my opinion.

 

 

[michael]

all depends

the date/mintmark of the coin?

on how much different 3x the price is??

does it have a full thumb and forefinger?/

 

is the 64 a $1000 coin and the 65 a $3000 COIN

 

OR $8000 AND $24000??

 

IT ALL DEPENDS

[Walkerfan]

It's hypothetical but let's say---APPROX. 2750 in 64 and 8250 in 65 and the best strike and every other technical merit ever for that issue.

[James_OldeTowne]

It's hypothetical but let's say---APPROX. 2750 in 64 and 8250 in 65 and the best strike and every other technical merit ever for that issue.

At my personal budget level, no way would I dish out $8250. I'd get a really nice 64, and have a lot of patience until one came along!

[PerryHall]

.......but it was twice the price of a MS 64.

 

For a 64 priced at twice the going rate for a 64, I'd pass on it unless it had a gold CAC sticker. Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.

[Walkerfan]

It's hypothetical but let's say---APPROX. 2750 in 64 and 8250 in 65 and the best strike and every other technical merit ever for that issue.

At my personal budget level, no way would I dish out $8250. I'd get a really nice 64, and have a lot of patience until one came along!

 

James in my scenario it is a 64 that is twice the price of one but nicer than most 65s b/c it is conditionally scarce. So not 8250 but 2750 * 2=5500. Would you take that risk.

[Keigwin]

It's hypothetical but let's say---APPROX. 2750 in 64 and 8250 in 65 and the best strike and every other technical merit ever for that issue.

At my personal budget level, no way would I dish out $8250. I'd get a really nice 64, and have a lot of patience until one came along!

 

James in my scenario it is a 64 that is twice the price of one but nicer than most 65s b/c it is conditionally scarce. So not 8250 but 2750 * 2=5700. Would you take that risk.

"Conditionally scarce" means something different to me. But I get your point. The 64 is a stunner.

 

Yes, I would pay much more for the 64. Even twice the average price. I would also accept that I might not get my money back when the time came to sell it.

 

That wouldn't bother me because I'd get enormous enjoyment from owning it and that's worth something.

Lance.

[Walkerfan]

It's hypothetical but let's say---APPROX. 2750 in 64 and 8250 in 65 and the best strike and every other technical merit ever for that issue.

At my personal budget level, no way would I dish out $8250. I'd get a really nice 64, and have a lot of patience until one came along!

 

James in my scenario it is a 64 that is twice the price of one but nicer than most 65s b/c it is conditionally scarce. So not 8250 but 2750 * 2=5700. Would you take that risk.

"Conditionally scarce" means something different to me. But I get your point. The 64 is a stunner.

 

Yes, I would pay much more for the 64. Even twice the average price. I would also accept that I might not get my money back when the time came to sell it.

 

That wouldn't bother me because I'd get enormous enjoyment from owning it and that's worth something.

Lance.

 

Thanks for the input, Everyone who bothered to respond. I tend to agree with you, Lance.

 

Coin collecting is a game of small wins and losses and, hopefully, you'll wind up ahead in the long run or at least break even.

 

I trust my OWN judgement and it hasn't failed me at all, yet. I'm confident in my discriminating eye and as long as you are still in between the 64-65 price range for a monster 64, then I say do it!! This is true between ANY respectable grade levels. If you know a coin is good and you can afford it and it is a 'rare bird' then go for it.

 

BTW, yes, I'll admit it; this is NOT hypothetical and I am trying to get feedback on and justify a recent purchase. Thanx again.

[michael]

It's hypothetical but let's say---APPROX. 2750 in 64 and 8250 in 65 and the best strike and every other technical merit ever for that issue.

 

BUY THAT MS64 IMMEDIATELY IF NOT SOONER

 

AS IT IS A VALUE OPPORTUNITY COIN WITH A FUNDEMENTIAL REASON TO RISE IN DEMAND AS I THINK WALKERS AS COLLECTING BY DATE IS ONLY GETTING STRONGER

[coinman_23885]

I've got a good question for you guys: What if a certain rare coin, which is 3x as expensive in MS 65 as it is in MS 64, as is often the case, and it is a condition rarity was found in MS 64 by you. It was an absolutely fantastic piece---better than some/alot of 65s but it was twice the price of a MS 64.

 

Would you buy it and think you got a heck of a nice coin that was better than many 65s and 33% bellow 65 price and could be regraded or would you think that until it is in a 65 holder that it's wishful thinking and NOT worth double 64 price??

 

I would not buy the coin, and I think it is personally a bad idea to pay MS65 price or near MS65 price for a MS64 coin. Granted, the coin will certainly be worth a premium. If the coin is truly rare and the coin has an unusually nice strike, luster, etc., then I might, in that rare instance, consider paying up to a 33% premium. Again, this would be exceedingly rare.

 

Given the economy, you may be able to pick rare coins at lower prices, as some investors may be forced to liquidate their holdings. I cannot speak for truly "rare" prices (i.e. prices in excess of $5,000, etc.), but I can say that I am picking up some classic U.S. coins (mostly silver), solid for the grade, in PCGS and NGC holders at below wholesale levels. This is even true of some capped bust material that I picked up at the last Heritage auction.

[Architecht]

 

I still remember a post by TomB on this that felt like it had the ring of truth to me:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=179270&an=

[Walkerfan]

I still remember a post by TomB on this that felt like it had the ring of truth to me:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=179270&an=

 

Thanks, Arch. I never saw this thread b4 and it made for some interesting reading.

[Walkerfan]

It's hypothetical but let's say---APPROX. 2750 in 64 and 8250 in 65 and the best strike and every other technical merit ever for that issue.

 

BUY THAT MS64 IMMEDIATELY IF NOT SOONER

 

AS IT IS A VALUE OPPORTUNITY COIN WITH A FUNDEMENTIAL REASON TO RISE IN DEMAND AS I THINK WALKERS AS COLLECTING BY DATE IS ONLY GETTING STRONGER

 

You're correct that the Walker market is a bit soft, currently, but quality key dates are always in high demand and still bring STRONG hammer prices and that has not changed, so rushing into anything is just foolish. There is also a point when you have to tell yourself that 'since the price gap between a choice 64 and a 65 has narrowed enough that it would simply be more feasible to find a nice coin at that next grade level.' I guess its up to the collector/investor to decide where he draws that line and where that point is. (the tough part). Although, as I've said, there are 64s that are better than 65s (or 63s better than 64s for that matter) and as long as you don't care about registry points or that insert number and MOST IMPORTANTLY---YOU TRUST YOUR OWN SKILLS (which I do), then it still may be an outstanding deal. I have already acted on this coin; I really don't think it will be a regretful decision but only time will tell.

[michael]

personally i think you made the correct decision as an advanced collector

 

but better to buy in this MARKET THEN WHEN THE MARKET IS WHITE HOT

 

as when the walker market takes off, and it will!!

 

then the price difference for this partciular date/mintmark combo. between 64 and 65 will be astronomical and your fully struck gem walker in a 64 holder will be in great rabid demand and might even 65 if re-submitted

 

love the value play here (thumbs u

 

and you will not have to pay the price to add to your collection

 

so to sum it up

 

this coin is a coin that has a fundemential reason to rise in demand

 

 

[Keigwin]

I paid almost 3x for the below 1814 CBH and I've never regretted it for a moment.

 

I paid 2x for the '39 seated half and I like it more each day.

 

I overpaid for the 1908-S IHC and I got a bargain.

 

The MS64 1887 Morgan was 2x price guide but it was a silly increment. MS64? Yeah, right.

 

No way that 1832 CBH is AU58. It has eye appeal and barely a rub. So I paid 20% over price guide. Give me more like that!

 

The 1911 Lincoln was a bit more than 2x price guide and I'd pay it again.

 

Quality coins are never a bad investment, even when you pay more than (average) price guide. I don't think I'm alone, ready to pay multiples for nice coins.

Lance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coindude]

High quality coins there!! Love all of them and those are fantastic pics.

[Keigwin]

Thanks, CD. I didn't mean to come off so cocky. I just wanted to say that paying more for nice coins is worth it...unless you are a flipper.

Lance.

[coinman_23885]

Thanks, CD. I didn't mean to come off so cocky. I just wanted to say that paying more for nice coins is worth it...unless you are a flipper.

Lance.

 

I'd be willing to bet that if you resubmitted some of those coins, more than one would come back at a higher grade. I agree that the MS64 is better than many MS65 coins out there.

[Coindude]

Thanks, CD. I didn't mean to come off so cocky. I just wanted to say that paying more for nice coins is worth it...unless you are a flipper.

Lance.

I don't think you came off as cocky at all. My best coins, which there are few of, I paid well over what others would have paid for them. When, or if, I ever decide to sell, I don't think I'd get back what a put into them, but that's ok, I love them for what they are and I'm happy at the price I paid for them.

[Walkerfan]

Thanks, CD. I didn't mean to come off so cocky. I just wanted to say that paying more for nice coins is worth it...unless you are a flipper.

Lance.

I don't think you came off as cocky at all. My best coins, which there are few of, I paid well over what others would have paid for them. When, or if, I ever decide to sell, I don't think I'd get back what a put into them, but that's ok, I love them for what they are and I'm happy at the price I paid for them.

 

Thank You all (James, Perry, Coinman, Michael, CD, and, Lance, thanks for those breathtaking pics of your CBHs & SLHs). I REALLY appreciate your input and I want to thank each and every one of you!!!

[Walkerfan]

HERE IT IS---Check out this strike and it has super luster and VERY clean!! It's much better than the MS 65 that sold in Houston (for 600 more)---

 

 

Luster:

 

 

 

What say U??

[coinman_23885]

HERE IT IS---Check out this strike and it has super luster and VERY clean!! It's much better than the MS 65 that sold in Houston (for 600 more)---

What say U??

 

The surfaces certainly are above average, and I would dare to say that they would put this coin at the MS65 level. I notice what appears to be a little weakness in one finger in Ms. Liberty's hand, but I don't think that should knock the grade down to MS64, especially given that many dates are known for weak hands. The luster is incredible and the strike is good especially for a San Francisco piece (nice skirt lines). Irrespective of the stated grade (which I feel may be too low), this coin certainly deserves a handsome premium. This proves that I was wrong in my previous statement, especially in light of your photo. If you ever decide to part with this, I wouldn't be surprised to see you make a premium. I think this is exacerbated by the depressed walker market, which I fully expect to rebound once the economy improves. Congratulations!

 

Edited to add: If I were you, I may consider resubmitting the coin (keeping it in its current slab); you might be pleasantly surprised and receive an upgrade on the right day. I know that its hard to develop a nice pattern, but I have heard some people mention that graders are fairly nice to coins submitted through the "walk-through" service at coin shows. I personally have never personally submitted a coin through the walk-through tier; thus, I cannot speak from personal experience.

 

P.S. Do you think the toning may have been factored into the grading?

 

[Walkerfan]

Thanks Coinman--I have compared this to many MS 65s and even a few 66s and the strike on this piece was far superior to almost every one. Those surfaces as we both mentioned are quite pristine and luster is killer. As far as any weakness on liberty's hand; this is about as good as it gets. Most 1927-s coins are nothing more than a smooth piece of metal where the thumb and finger should be. A good piece will show emerging definition (basically a line of separation). Although, slightly truncated, this one actually shows dilineation and the ACTUAL shape of the hand and thumb. Ambio said that in his decade of working as an auction cataloger he had NEVER come across a fully struck piece.

 

Good point regarding the light tone. No, I don't believe that it was a factor as I have seen 65s that are flatter AND darker in color. I have 2-3 coins that I would like to resubmit, someday, and this would be one of them 4 sure. This is one of the best examples that I have ever seen when all factors (strike, surf. pres. and luster) are considered. Others, obviously, saw the same things in it that I did, because it brought such a strong price (even higher than I predicted that it would). Coins simply don't sell at such premiums in this weak market unless they are truly special. I would feel much better about the price if it were in a 65 holder, though, but compared to MOST 65s I've seen I like it MUCH MORE and it was still alot less than a 65, so how much is that worth?? Call it what you like, but I just have a good feeling about this coin and so I took a chance. I have paid premiums for coins before but this one was a stretch. I appreciate your input alot, BTW.

 

PS that MS 65 that sold for 6350 in Houston is now in B&M's inventory and they are attempting to flip it for 8500!!!!! Such is the coin market! I CERTAINLY like this one much more and at a MUCH lower price than the B & M coin. Buy the coin and not the holder applies once again.

[michael]

HERE IT IS---Check out this strike and it has super luster and VERY clean!! It's much better than the MS 65 that sold in Houston (for 600 more)---

 

 

Luster:

 

 

 

What say U??

 

holy mess

 

that coin is only in a 64 holder

 

whomever submitted that coin got porked

[michael]

also EDS from fresh dies

 

myself never seen a 27-s with that much details and it was struck in san francisco!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

well i think i have seen it all and then i see this coin

 

AMAZING STRIKE AND ORIGINAL SURFACES TO SAY THE LEAST

[Walkerfan]

also EDS from fresh dies

 

myself never seen a 27-s with that much details and it was struck in san francisco!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

well i think i have seen it all and then i see this coin

 

AMAZING STRIKE AND ORIGINAL SURFACES TO SAY THE LEAST

 

Thanks, Michael!

[michael]

i think this coin was struck in philly and then an added mintmark

 

 

now of course this is NOT TRUE

 

but man the strike is well one of a kind for a 27 ............. S mint no less

[coinman_23885]

 

PS that MS 65 that sold for 6350 in Houston is now in B&M's inventory and they are attempting to flip it for 8300!!!!! Such is the coin market! I CERTAINLY like this one much more and at a MUCH lower price than the B & M coin. Buy the coin and not the holder applies once again.

 

I'm still trying to put my finger on why this coin didn't grade higher. I looked at the coin for 20 minutes, wondering if at had been silently net graded; however, I cannot find anything wrong with the coin. I also wanted to clarify my toning comment. I wasn't implying that it was unattractive: to the contrary, I find the coin attractive and like its originality.

 

Was this a private sale or an auction?

[coinman_23885]

One more point, if this was an auction such as Heritage or others with an increment system, I think it would be a good indication that the price guide value is out of date (evening assuming that your piece would sell for more than the others given the phenomenal characteristics). Many rare coins trade via private sales and are not published, and few pieces surface for public sales regularly so it wouldn't surprise me if the price guide values were a few years old. It could be time for an increase in the price guides too.