Question reg Reales 8 Coins... "Pieces of 8"

[mesa777-migration]

Can someone from NGC please advise if this coins are at all rare or if there are millions upon millions of these coins out there. I have noticed on eBay lately many coins from the shipwrecks that are getting fairly high prices on eBay. I had to pick up a 1770 NGC graded coin as I just fell in love with the design and all. Will these coins have future upside? Would love to hear from someone that has knowledge in these coins!

 

Thanks!

[Conder101]

Need more information You say it is a 1770 8 Reales, but what mint is it from and what grade did they give it? And is it a details grade or a regular grade? Frankly I think a lot of "shipwreck" coins sell for more than they should. Usually a shipwreack coin that shows the evidence of sea corrosion will be worth less than an undamaged coin. Also a coin from a known and more important or historical wreck will be worth more than one from a lesser known wreck and well more than from an unknown wreck. There is also the problem that many if not most shipwreck coins are sold not to coin collectors but to people entranced by the "romance" of the wreck.

[mesa777-migration]

Thanks for the reply, I saw one of these on eBay about a month ago and have now started collecting them, there is just something special to me about these coins and I probably helped jack up the prices. One of the coins I purchased was a 1770 MF R8 in AU NGC condition, paid $400 but figuring its age, where its been, ect, just had to buy it. Don't know if these type coins go up in value much but it will outlive me. This certain coin was not a shipwreck coin however have purchased a few NGC slabbed. Anyone else here collect the Reales coins? I know these were the first pre US dollars and there is a boat load of history about them.

[tenacious]

mesapsa,

 

Be careful. There are just as many fake 8 reales on eBay as genuine ones. Make sure you know the difference before you start putting any significant amount of money into them.

 

I met a guy online 2 months ago that had been collecting 8 reales for a year all from eBay. He recently found out that all but one coin in his entire collection are ALL fakes. He lost a lot of money.

 

And don't think eBay feedback means anything. One of the worst eBay sellers of fake Latin American coins has a perfect 100% feedback.

 

From your post I get the impression that you are just starting to learn about these. So exercise caution on eBay. And only buy from sellers you know to be reputable. Etc...

 

 

[jim hawkins]

about the only "up-side" is watching what you are paying , and do plenty of research.. there are alot of fakes coming from China.

 

I started buying about 15 years ago , (have more than 200) and the prices have done nothing but go UP.

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=2205

 

With Dan Sedwick Treasure Auctions and Heritages/Ponterio , etc including More and More in their auctions , the general public is seeing a new avenue in coin collecting. which it turn drives up demand AND prices.

Goldbergs Millennia sale had several coins selling for 5K + , and several in the 100K range.

 

http://sunkentreasure.com/gold2010/2010sale.htm

 

Heritage current sale has 2 early Mexico 4 reales at $1000. (over their estimates - and still a month to go)

 

Research - Research - research is the key

 

http://sunkentreasure.com/royals.htm

http://sunkentreasure.com/ebay/index.htm

 

and like any "investment" - enjoy your purchases for awhile..

Dont try to buy today - and sell tomorrow, or you Just might get discouraged

 

 

[Westwood Arms]

Also starting to collect Colonial Mexican coins. Though still upgrading my Mexico 5c and keeping an eye out for overdates, I am basically finished with the first reform (1905-1992) coinage. I played around with state coppers (very scarce in higher grades), and revolution (love my MS62 Muera Huerta), and put together a high grade Republic general type set (1/4R-8E, 1c-20P). No hookneck 1R, 8E or Iturbide gold :-(.

 

Gem Republic 8Rs are beautiful coins and relatively affordable. I think I will continue buy these as they turn up. Ponterio’s sale 155 had some nice affordable 8Rs.

 

Now I’m assembling a colonial set by denomination and ruler with the idea of identifying the denomination/period I like the most. Skip the early CJ series, gold, and for the most part 4R. Old half crowns are expensive and hard to find, and the 4R is no exception.

 

Colonial Mexico minted A LOT of silver. Pradeau’s Numismatic History of Mexico has mintages in the tens of millions per year as far back as the 1700s! These coins are cheap too. I bought most of the AG-F minors at or below melt (silver at $30). The production was very varied, from CJ, decent coins for the time, to Cobs (lumps), to the Dos Mundos, arguably one of the world’s most attractive coins, certainly for its era.

 

Based on the colonial coins accumulated so far, the 2R and the 8R denominations are most attractive, though 2R Cobs are sucky. I’m probably going to specialize in the 8Rs.

 

The Chinese counterfeits are very scary and might make me rethink the 8Rs.

 

Does anyone want to start a thread on Colonial Mexico (or use this one) for more advanced discussion? I’m sure there are folks out there who have forgotten more about these coins than I will ever know.

 

[jim hawkins]

a nice group for discussion....

 

http://www.colonialcobs.com/forum/

[World Colonial]

I would avoid buying raw coins of the pillar issues from eBay entirely, as others have stated,

 

Most of the Mexico 8R by my standards are common, except in AU or MS. On eBay in particular, I also find the ask prices to be frequently excessive.

 

The other mints are scarcer than Mexico. I have seen only a few from Bolivia or Guatemala in AU or better with somewhat more from Peru.

 

The Gilboy reference provides a rarity rating for each date/denomination/die variety combination. However, my experience does not always coincide with his, probably because his scale is only for coins generically graded VF or better which I do not find particularly useful since I do not buy coins in VF.

 

An example of coins which I consider to be scarcer than Gilboy claims are those from Bolivia. The minors appear to be much scarcer than he claims and so is the Bolivia 1770 8R which is the most common from this mint. He lists the mintage at one million but if this is correct, most of them must have been melted. They do not appear to be anywhere near that common and most of those I see also appear to be mishandled or otherwise impaired.

 

I do not collect the 8R, only the minors. But if I did, I would probably buy them at public auctions like Heritage.

[Westwood Arms]

Thank you World Colonial. I want to stay with Mexico. What Minors do you think are interesting?

 

My wife thinks the 2Rs are nice and being famous “2 bits” is intriguing.

 

I have a 1799/8 NGC 62 ¼ R, that NGC mislabeled as a 1799 no over date. This coin is very cool but very small.

 

I also like the copper Tlacos , very hard to find in high grade.

 

I saw on some other thread, maybe you, asking about a hoard of CJ silver coming out. I think there is/was recently, will ask Rick P. at Long Beach and get back to you or the thread.

 

Do you know of a Gilboy reference available?

[World Colonial]

I like all of the minors, much more than the 8R even though they are smaller. The reason for this is that they are VASTLY scarcer for the equivalent dates in better grades most of the time and to make things better, also MUCH cheaper in most instances outside of the 4R. From a financial standpoint though, I consider it likely that the 8R will be better "investments" because few collect the minors.

 

There are no copper pillars, except for the granos and I'm not sure how many of those there are. I have only seen I believe two or three on Heritage dated 1769. The design is not the same either.

 

The reason why the smaller denominations are much harder to find in higher grade is because they did or appear to have circulated a lot more. 8R was a lot of money at that time. And from what I know, there were also far fewer minted because they were not used as trade coinage or if they were, only minimally.

 

Kent Ponterio (now with Bowers & Merena) told me once that the Bolivia minors were still circulating about 100 years ago. And the absolutely awful quality of most specimens is consistent with his claim, regardless of what Gilboy claims about their scarcity.

 

I only try to collect AU or MS coins, though I have not had any luck finding Peru coins lately. In the 10+ years I have been collecting these, I have seen a few Bolivia and Peru 4R and one from Guatemala in these grades. For the 2R, I have seen about 1/2 dozen (own two) from Peru, zero from Bolivia and zero from Guatemala. I own many of the Peru 1/2R and 1R in the census, have seen exactly one from Bolivia and zero from Guatemala. The Mexico coins I see occasionally except for the 4R. Its the scarcest of all denominations by far. I own a few Mexico but have also passed up many opportunties to buy them, some now to my regret.

 

You are going to have a hard time finding Gilboy's book anywhere I believe. The print run was limited to 500 copies unless they did a second one. I bought mine on eBay about 9 years ago for $65. I expect it might cost a few hundred now.

 

It was not me who asked about the hoard but I'm definitely interested. The only hoard of pillars I'm aware of is the one that I presume contained all those 1754 Mexico 8R and a few other dates from Mexico and Peru.

[tenacious]

Do you know of a Gilboy reference available?

 

I got my copy of Gilboy from Ponterio about 3 years ago. It was $225. But that is much cheaper than others were trying to sell them for. I saw some for $1000 on Abebooks.com. And now there are no Gilboy listings on that site.

 

At that time Ponterio said they had many copies left. And I have never seen Ponterio advertise them for sale. So there could still be copies left.

 

I would contact Ponterio & Associates and ask. It's worth a try.

 

FYI, there were only 500 copies of Gilboy's The Columnarios of Central and South America printed.

 

 

[TwoKopeiki]

Welcome to this very interesting and addicting area of coin collecting

[Westwood Arms]

Thanks, I’ll see Kent and Rick next week at LB and ask about Gilboy. It was much better when they were three miles from our house. Before they moved I picked up one each of excess auction catalogs and PRs, back to Ponterio and Wyatt.

[Westwood Arms]

Thank you so much. I called K. Ponterio and asked him to bring a Gilboy book to Long Beach. It was $200 plus tax. This is a great reference, well written, carefully researched and passionate without being flowery. He said they had about 20 copies left.

 

I also asked about a Carlos and Joanna hoard. Nothing recent has turned up. However about 10 years ago about 2000 coins surfaced, they were probably buried. The recent activity is most likely due to recipients of the coins sending them in to TPGSs for grading (me included).

 

Picked up a 1759 8 Reales (real) for $300, a very nice AU? 1789 8R for $270 and a 1796 8 R for $70. The 1789 has the bust of Charles III with legend of Charles IV. In my limited experience with Mexican colonial coins the Charles IV, not IIII with the old bust are quite scarce and under rated.

 

I’m looking for the minors of this variety to fill the denomination by ruler type set.

 

[tenacious]

Thank you so much. I called K. Ponterio and asked him to bring a Gilboy book to Long Beach. It was $200 plus tax. This is a great reference, well written, carefully researched and passionate without being flowery. He said they had about 20 copies left.

 

Good to hear that! Thanks for letting me know. And yours was even a little cheaper than mine.

[jim hawkins]

 

I also asked about a Carlos and Joanna hoard. Nothing recent has turned up. However about 10 years ago about 2000 coins surfaced, they were probably buried. The recent activity is most likely due to recipients of the coins sending them in to TPGSs for grading (me included).

 

 

Heritage just sold 2 nice ones. (M-A's) .for real good $$,

 

if you do a chase on the Cert #'s... someone slabbed 22 at the same time ..

 

I was looking for the source ... ha

[World Colonial]

The Gilboy book is the best book on coins I have owned by far and its not just becuase I like the series. I do not own many coin books, but the other supposed reference books I have seen I do not consider to be so at all. This is one of the few that I have seen that is one.

[Westwood Arms]

This is a pretty good reference site.

 

http://www.columnarios.com/pillars/index.htm

 

 

[World Colonial]

It is and I have seen it before. But as usual, it ignores the minors entirely.