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NGC expands VAM attributions

12 posts in this topic

this is a step in the right direction..

they also need to address the other list coins as well since they are just as popular to collect

Elite/Super CD

Kipton 12

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Yes, a step in the right direction. Regarding further expanding the list of varieties attributed, given the choice, I'd rather see a zero error rate for those currently being attributed.

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Yes, a step in the right direction. Regarding further expanding the list of varieties attributed, given the choice, I'd rather see a zero error rate for those currently being attributed.

 

I agree with that, John, but I would also like to see VAMWorld take greater control over how the listings are edited. There have been too many instances where photos have been overwritten, and unnecessary & useless photos added to listings which do nothing more that add to the confusion.

 

Chris

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I'll take the attribution wiki integrity issue under advisement and see what can be done about it. I do agree that it is too easy to sabotage a page, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

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I'll take the attribution wiki integrity issue under advisement and see what can be done about it. I do agree that it is too easy to sabotage a page, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

 

I don't think it is done intentionally, but let's face it, some of the members really want to see their photos posted alongside of Leroy's plates. For example, take a look at the 1882-CC VAM-2c. You'll even find a couple of my photos there (requested).

 

Chris

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Error Rate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sending a 82 cc VAM2C BACK THAT they just graded the other day and said it wasnt a list coin the confusion is in the notes that 2c also comes with a crack and not a break that was discovered By the MAN himself

so I get to pay an aditional 20 bucks to ship back and relabel the GSA

case...when this happens and the customer is right they should not charge for return shipping and send 1 coupon per coin that is wrong for the equal tier

that was originally submitted

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Error Rate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sending a 82 cc VAM2C BACK THAT they just graded the other day and said it wasnt a list coin the confusion is in the notes that 2c also comes with a crack and not a break that was discovered By the MAN himself

so I get to pay an aditional 20 bucks to ship back and relabel the GSA

case...when this happens and the customer is right they should not charge for return shipping and send 1 coupon per coin that is wrong for the equal tier

that was originally submitted

 

 

Slow down a bit........

 

.....confusion in the notes......

 

Which notes do you mean?

 

......comes with a crack and not a break.....

 

Please be more specific!

 

.......discovered by the MAN himself......

 

I'm not sure what you mean or who the MAN is.

 

The example concerning the VAM-2c that I mentioned to John is because the photos seem to be a little mixed up in the listing on VAMWorld. So, if this is what you are mad about, then who should be blamed? NGC or VAMWorld?

 

Photos would help!

 

I've had my VAM-2c since the summer of 2006, and it was attributed by Leroy in October, 2006. It's already in an NGC slab and it was submitted to NGC at FUN 2011 for the attribution.

 

Chris

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One thing that needs to be clear is that no grading service relies on VAMWorld for attributions when there is data published in a more stable and authoritative format, such as the Hit List 40 book, and both PCGS and NGC have agreed to do attributions as a service for those that want it for varieties so published. The ease at which any listing can be modified should make it obvious why this is so. The 82-CC VAM 2 sequence is one of several in the Morgan dollar series with a long list of die stages documented -- roughly 10, I think. Mapping these known, unofficial "in between" die stages to the officially cataloged ones can't be done to the satisfaction of a grading service, since by nature of being unofficial they aren't cataloged in an authoritative reference. The 1888-O "Scarface" is another example of this -- 4 official stages in VAM, 10 "Harrison" stages.

 

When I do my attributions, I use a combination of the VAM book, the printed updates, specialty books, and VAMWorld. When I find a match in VAMWorld that doesn't have a "Leroy" picture in it, I always verify with another source. I sympathize with everyone who has looked at an entry on VAMWorld and seen pictures that make matters more confusing or scrolled through many screenfuls of pictures that aren't helpful. While VAMWorld is not part of the SSDC, but only sponsored by the SSDC, I will do what I can to make the attribution wiki more stable, more reliable, and more usable, but I cannot call the shots. Since this all depends on the work of volunteers, however, it won't happen overnight. Since it will necessarily cause pictures to be removed in some cases, part of the price of a better wiki will be occasionally telling someone their picture isn't wanted.

 

If you have a variety you are sending to NGC or PCGS that has been revised since published in the most recent authoritative reference (not a printout from VAMWorld), I would advise including supporting documentation with your submission and/or contacting customer service with advice before submitting. We all want the TPGs to do accurate attributions and not to feel like it's a waste of their time to offer the service.

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Thanks for the input, John.

 

I don't have the Hit List book, so I don't even know which plate photos were used for the VAM-2c. Anyway, I checked my submission tracking, and they have it listed as the VAM-2c Counterclash.

 

There are a number of the books I wish I had, but now that I am on Social Security, I just can't afford all of them. Oh, well!

 

Chris

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Hey guys I am not Mad at anybody or NGC

messydesk touched on the error rate so I chimed in on my current fiasco

no big deal it has happened before it will happen again

the ATTRIBUTION Business is tough ...if it were easy everbody would be doing it

If you read the text on the page there are comes with a crack OR A Break

by the rear portion of the Phrygian Cap

the MAN... refers to Leroy Van Allen it was his listing Discovery

no Disrespect was intended if that was the way it read

NGC just needs to be a little more careful thats all 2c is really an easy one compared to most vams and its in a GSA holder so all the attributions are easily seen on good specimens

Vamworld has nothing to do with it

 

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An earlier stage of the VAM 2 C is also known. This example was attributed by Leroy Van Allen 25 Oct 2006

Note that the break at the back of the cap is not yet formed, only a faint crack is visible. Liberty's upper lip is counterclashed.

This example has no hint of mirrored surface, unlike the later stage pictured above, also note that the later stage appears to have an additional clashmark from the back of the cap. During the lifespan of the VAM 2 marriage, the dies clashed at least 4 times and were repolished at least twice. An interesting study in die progression that may yield several more reported stages.

 

 

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