My heart sank to my knees...

[Hoot]

...when I saw this image of a rather nicely preserved buffalo. The AT simply ruined an otherwise nicely detailed piece (being advertised, of course, as totally original) .

 

 

Hoot

[Bruceswar]

looks like a MS 65..... People just need to quit tinkering with coins.... So sad to see a really nice buffalo wasted.... Any way you think NCS could help this one?

[MikeKing]

how can you tell that it's AT?

I could never figure this stuff out.

All these rainbow colored coins esp the Morgans and Washingtons that are certified ALL look AT to me but I guess I'm wrong.

Still can't believe it.

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Mike -

You posted exactly what I was thinking. How can you tell this is AT?

 

Mark, I know that you really know your way around Buffalos - what tipped you off that these aren't natural colors? From my untrained eye, it sure looks purdy and I wouldn't have given a second thought that its AT.

[LucyBop]

I also don't see why you are saying this is clearly AT?

 

Educate me on this one, what exactly makes this one AT?

[TomB]

It's funny, the coin in the thread reminds me a little of your icon.

 

Anyway, I'm not certain that the look of the coin is captured accurately and I say this because it looks like the coin has a white piece of paper as the background, yet the paper appears to be grey. Therefore, the white balance is off on the image and, if that is the case, then the colors are somewhat off in the image, too. If the colors are accurate as portrayed on my computer, then I would think that the coin was lightly cleaned at one point and that the ruddiness of the colors is due to that cleaning.

 

Folks, I just have to add that Hoot is far and away more of an expert on nickel coinage than I am. For those who are not familiar with what makes a coin "look" natural, it is oftentimes a skin, or patina, that envelopes the coin and causes a protective sheen to appear especially when the coin is tilted. Thick, crunchy color that retains luster and is heavy on the colors of Autumn is indicative of original toning. Expecially difficult colors to fabricate are blood red and lime green. Colors that are tip offs to AT are many times unusual shades of blue and purple. The proximity of colors to one another, and their coverage on the coin, also give evidence as to AT or natural toning. In the end, it comes down to the experience of having seen coins that were not abused and then simply reckoning what is real and what is not. If you have a passion and an eye for it, it is usually not that tough.

[LucyBop]

it is oftentimes a skin, or patina, that envelopes the coin and causes a protective sheen to appear especially when the coin is tilted. Thick, crunchy color that retains luster and is heavy on the colors of Autumn is indicative of original toning. Expecially difficult colors to fabricate are blood red and lime green. Colors that are tip offs to AT are many times unusual shades of blue and purple. The proximity of colors to one another, and their coverage on the coin, also give evidence as to AT or natural toning.

 

good info for me here Tom, I appreciate it, I love color coins, and I wan't to really learn what to be cautious of, but I still fail to see how this coin is tagg'd AT from these two images......

[jom]

As a Buffalo collector I appreciate Hoot's input. I do, however, have the opinion that this coin "may" be AT BUT it just doesn't much matter to me. Coins are AT'd for two reasons. To hide something OR to get a higher price due to the popularity of toned coins. Therefore if you feel the coin is what you like AND it's a fair price I don't see a problem. Although, I can understand the damage a chem job can do to a coin and that IS a concern.

 

I realize this subject is very sensitive to people but I believe the "NT vs AT" issue is blown WAY out of proportion. To me, if the coin is nice AND you feel the price is fair then you should buy the coin. Whether it's AT or not should be a secondary issue. Especially, if it is as mild example such as this coin.

 

Just my opinion.

 

jom

[GDJMSP]

I dunno Hoot - you're gonna have to educate me too I guess. Looks like the real deal to me based on that pic.

 

I've said it before - reckon I'll say it again. I believe there are those who are so good at doctoring coins regarding color - that few if any could ever tell the difference. This might be one of those times.

[Leothelion]

Therefore if you feel the coin is what you like

AND it's a fair price, I don't see a problem. I realize this

subject is very sensitive to people but I believe

the "NT vs AT" issue is blown WAY out of proportion.

To me, if the coin is nice AND you feel the price is

fair then you should buy the coin. Whether it's AT

or not, should be a secondary issue. Especially,

if it is as mild example such as this coin.

 

Just my opinion.

 

jom

 

One of the problems you can run into, buying an AT

coin, is that the (artificial) toning process may and it's

most likely not complete. Toning of any kind can last

up to 70 years.

 

Leo

[jom]

True! And it's also possible your dipped Morgans could turn to coal and your RED Lincolns could go to chocolate brown in the 70 years too.

 

jom

[Hoot]

I realize this subject is very sensitive to people but I believe the "NT vs AT" issue is blown WAY out of proportion. To me, if the coin is nice AND you feel the price is fair then you should buy the coin. Whether it's AT or not should be a secondary issue. Especially, if it is as mild example such as this coin.

 

Just my opinion.

 

jom

 

I kinda like jom's take on this, but here it goes with what sets off alarms for me with this coin...

 

First, the coin looks like a nice slider to me. It may or may not have circulated but there's some rub especially noticable on the reverse in the area of the bison's horn, cape, side, and tail. For the Indian, the area of the hair above the knot is either not fully struck or also shows signs of rub. For one, there should be two incused hair lines (see attachment) right above the knot and they are absent. This is unusual for this issue, which usually has full detail in MS65 and higher, but almost always shows such detail even in choice MS and AU58. So, I first asked myself. "Why so much toning on a slider?" (By the way, the coin is being offered as a gem MS coin.)

 

As for the AT, there are at least three reasons I think so. 1) Buffalo nickels can sometimes tone green naturally, but it's always dull green. Lime green in a buffalo is a great tipoff for AT. 2) Note the way that the rose color lies. It is darkest (thickest) around the devices, as if reacting to some contaminant that was stuck in such positions or pooled there. This color is not terribly uncommon in late-date buffalos but it nearly always forms patches across the devices and not solely in the cracks and crevaces. Which leads me to (3)... the colors are ALL vibrant and follow the contour of the devices more so than forming concentric rings from the rim or blotchy patterns across the coin. This is what you get when you apply some sort of solvent (liquid or gas) to a buffalo nickel followed by heat. I've cooked a few nickels in my time in order to test such ideas. This nickel is consistent with what I've observed and also with what I had rejected by NGC and PCGS in the past as AT (before I had any sense - as if I have some now ).

 

So, the coin looks like a heavily doctored slider to me.

 

Now Tom, as for my avitar, the toning is a tad odd, but it's blotchy and you may recall that it's not so vibrant. The coin is also likely retoned from some previous dip , but what the hell, I like it. Also keep in mind that Dave Lange said it might grade a couple of points higher if I cracked it and dip it!

 

Thanks for all the input evryone. Hoot

[TomB]

I like your analysis and explanation very much. Of course, you know I was just busting you (bison) chops on my other remark.

[Hoot]

I like your analysis and explanation very much. Of course, you know I was just busting you (bison) chops on my other remark.

 

I liked your goading! Made me feel alive... But just imagine the dipping that buff you recently sold me could take (attached)!

 

Hoot

[LucyBop]

Crazy Daddy-o! I appreciate your post.....

[XpipedreamR]

Thanks. I always like to read about the thought process that goes into the AT/NT determination.

[jom]

First, the coin looks like a nice slider to me. It may or may not have circulated but there's some rub especially noticable on the reverse in the area of the bison's horn, cape, side, and tail.

 

I'm not sure I agree here. The FIRST place that wear appears on a Buffalo reverse (usually) is on the high point of the Buffs hip. There is a "plateau" that is created and I don't see that here. Maybe you've seen the coin in person so maybe you know better than I....I'm only basing this on the picture.

 

I understand your take on the toning. I'm always suspecious when I see blothy toning especially near the devices. The rim is where the toning "should" be coming from in most cases. And I agree, it's not a particularly good strike for a 13-P Type 1 is it?

 

Great post Hoot!

 

jom

[Elcontador]

This coin has the small hairlines just above the knot of the braid that tell me that this coin has been cleaned. This area is totally devoid of detail. Also, there are lots of little hairlines on the reverse. Think it would be a slider if whomever just left it alone.

 

Most toning I've seen on buffs is golden, and the prettier toning has blue centers ringed with golden toning on the rest of the coin.

 

The worst I've seen re AT / cleaned coins was a fully struck 1920 P FH SLQ. It was worth at least a few grand before someone turned it into an "also ran."

[Bruceswar]

you mean toning like this.......