$20 saints

[ritter]

no matter what year you have?the price of gold is at an all time high.why does the price keep going down?i have a 1928 ms61 which was priced by numis at 1830.00.the price of gold has only gone up! why has the price by numis gone down?to 1750.00? did i miss something? i would love to hear if ANYONE has lost money;(by numis)on the price of gold.

[Conder101]

Probably because due to the high cost of gold many of the collectors who were willing to pay a numismatic premium for the common or even slightly scarcer dates are being priced out of the market. This means fewer people interested in the coin and therefor the prices start slipping bown toward the bullion value. (The people who can really afford the top grades or the rare dates really aren't affected by the bullion increase.)

[johnny9434]

Yeah, what Condor said

[jtryka]

Condor raises some good points, but I would also suggest for common dates there was a small rush for those coins based on 2 factors, first the unavailability of many bullion coins earlier this year and late last year, so bullion investors that would be happy with 1-ounce eagles or maples were forced to find an alternative, that being common date Saints and Liberty double eagles, driving their prices higher. The second factor was the marketing ploy used by some dealers and large gold marketing companies to make people think that a gold confiscation was coming and that only pre-1933 gold would be exempt, thus driving the common date double eagles even higher. That has been debunked and supplies in modern bullion are higher, so those two factors are subsiding and you're seeing premiums for common date Saints move back to more normal levels. This is only my opinion of couse and worth what you paid!

[World Colonial]

I would not pay more than the "average" premium over bullion for a coin like this whatever that may happen to be and I am not sure what it is. At the moment, based upon the $1750 price quoted, its between 25% and 30%.

[FishyOne]

Wait for the change. These premiums bounce up and down all the time and right now they're down. Your MS61 Saint will bring $2,000 soon enough. Hang onto it and don't worry.

[Coagman]

...the price of gold is at an all time high.why does the price keep going down?i have a 1928 ms61 which was priced by numis at 1830.00.the price of gold has only gone up! why has the price by numis gone down?to 1750.00? did i miss something? i would love to hear if ANYONE has lost money;(by numis)on the price of gold.

 

The prices that you indicated for a common Saint in MS61 are very inflated, and much higher than what is being realized at auction. If you look at the auction prices for common double eagles from the B&M auction on Nov 5, an MS61 Saint sold for $1409. Multiple MS63 Saints sold for $1466, and MS63 Liberty double eagles also sold for $1466, including several in OGH’s. These auction prices include the “Buyers Premium.” Based on these results, the premiums are continuing to shrink as the price of gold increases.

[World Colonial]

i agree with you. As far as I am concerned, common coins like these essentially are bullion coins which are also bought as a collectible. The same applies to others such as British sovereigns..

[jtryka]

Premiums be damned, I'd rather have a Saint than greenbacks!

[ritter]

thanx all for the input!i think condor has the answer to my question.the problem i have is ,a coin that is so old doesn't get the respect it should.when gold gets above 3000.00 you will see the pop dwindle.only because they are common.i think i will hold on to this coin because i think it will be valuable after gold hits the all-time high.people need money in this economy,which i think will be the demise of "common st gaudens" coins.

[ritter]

sorry didn't mean 3000.00.i mean't 2000.00 an ounce.

[HiHoAudio]

Premiums be damned, I'd rather have a Saint than greenbacks!

 

Amen. I only own one Saint Gaudens but I will probably never sell it.

 

What I find interesting is that my 1924 NGC MS62 Saint is valued at $1810 while my 1986W $50 American Eagle in NGC Ultra Cameo PF69 is worth $1860.

 

I guess it's all about condition.

[World Colonial]

This coin will not get more valuable except as it changes with the price of the metal plus/minus minor changes in the premium. Its possible that some of these coins could be melted in the future but there is no current reason to believe (that I can think of) that this will substantially change its scarcity and therefore, its future numismatic premium.

 

The opinion I state here is not any different and applies equally to other similar gold coins. Common date British sovereigns, Swiss and French 20 franc, etc share a similar profile except that they are smaller coins and in most or possibly every instance, there are fewer people who buy them as a collectible than this one. However, most of these are common also and the likelihood of them developing any significant numismatic premium in the future is remote in this grade.

 

I would rather own this coin that these others, but I would not pay any noticeable premium for it.

 

If you like it, you should just keep for that reason.

[World Colonial]

Premiums be damned, I'd rather have a Saint than greenbacks!

 

Amen. I only own one Saint Gaudens but I will probably never sell it.

 

What I find interesting is that my 1924 NGC MS62 Saint is valued at $1810 while my 1986W $50 American Eagle in NGC Ultra Cameo PF69 is worth $1860.

 

I guess it's all about condition.

 

Probably, but equally if not more likely is that most people are unaware of the alternatives when they make such a purchase.

 

Aside from personal preference, its the best reason to explain why any number of coins sell for such different prices, given their apparent merits.

[jtryka]

I think the concerns over the premiums for common coins may be warranted, however we are having the discussion only because these coins really trade with bullion prices. The rarer dates, such as the branch mint coins of the 1920s really haven't moved a whole lot in the last 3-4 years, but we don't talk about a coin like the 25-S where the premium went from $5,000 to $4,100 on an AU specimen, since they really don't trade with bullion prices.

[World Colonial]

My intepretation of the original post is that there is the common notion that just because the price of bullion went up, that the price of this coin (or any other like it) should also go up. The real world does not work like that.

 

Because the numismatic premium on this coin is relatively low for one that is considered a collectible by many as opposed to a bullion equivalent, a coin like this one will generally have a higher correlation to gold than those which have a higher premium.

 

But not all the time. In my last post, I gave an explanation why common low grade MS coins of this issue can or might sell for less than the modern equivalent.

 

For more expensive coins like the 1925-S, a weak economy like the one which exists now is a negative for any coin with a large numismatic premium, even though not all such coins will lose value.

[FishyOne]

thanx all for the input!i think condor has the answer to my question.the problem i have is ,a coin that is so old doesn't get the respect it should.when gold gets above 3000.00 you will see the pop dwindle.only because they are common.i think i will hold on to this coin because i think it will be valuable after gold hits the all-time high.people need money in this economy,which i think will be the demise of "common st gaudens" coins.

 

You've got the right attitude about this. I own several common date Double Eagles and most are MS certified pieces. I've watched the price of these drop all year long as gold kept going up.

 

Last winter when gold was $1150, you couldn't find an MS63 certified $20 Lib for under $2500. As gold broke through $1300 this fall, you couldn't sell one for over $2000! It was kind of crazy but market forces change often and will again.

 

Mark my words, your MS63 Saint will bring over $2,000 within 2 years. Gold might be $1500-$1600 when it happens but what the heck!

[FishyOne]

The prices that you indicated for a common Saint in MS61 are very inflated, and much higher than what is being realized at auction. If you look at the auction prices for common double eagles from the B&M auction on Nov 5, an MS61 Saint sold for $1409. Multiple MS63 Saints sold for $1466, and MS63 Liberty double eagles also sold for $1466, including several in OGH’s. These auction prices include the “Buyers Premium.” Based on these results, the premiums are continuing to shrink as the price of gold increases.

 

Please link the PCGS OGH MS63 Double Eagle(s) that sold for $1466 with Buyer's Premium.

 

Generic $20 Libs in MS63 bring $1800-$1900 minimum on eBay and Heritage right now. Many are still over $2,000. A seller would net about $1175 based on your description.

 

Again, wait for the market makers to get back into the action. These are down right now but $1466 for MS63 $20 Lib? Seller's are getting well under melt value.

[MarkFeld]

The prices that you indicated for a common Saint in MS61 are very inflated, and much higher than what is being realized at auction. If you look at the auction prices for common double eagles from the B&M auction on Nov 5, an MS61 Saint sold for $1409. Multiple MS63 Saints sold for $1466, and MS63 Liberty double eagles also sold for $1466, including several in OGH’s. These auction prices include the “Buyers Premium.” Based on these results, the premiums are continuing to shrink as the price of gold increases.

 

Please link the PCGS OGH MS63 Double Eagle(s) that sold for $1466 with Buyer's Premium.

 

Generic $20 Libs in MS63 bring $1800-$1900 minimum on eBay and Heritage right now. Many are still over $2,000. A seller would net about $1175 based on your description.

 

Again, wait for the market makers to get back into the action. These are down right now but $1466 for MS63 $20 Lib? Seller's are getting well under melt value.

I just checked the prices realized for the sale. And sure enough, there were about five MS63 $20 Liberty's that brought $1466, including the buyer's premium. I'm shocked.

[jtryka]

Those are crazy prices for Libs in 63, unless they were no-name slabs. I need to start paying attention to auctions more!

[FishyOne]

I just checked the prices realized for the sale. And sure enough, there were about five MS63 $20 Liberty's that brought $1466, including the buyer's premium. I'm shocked.

 

Me too. I couldn't believe it until I found them and still can't believe it. These have averaged about $1900 in PCGS MS63 before that auction. The seller must feel pretty bad selling them and netting 10% under melt!

[Coagman]

The prices that you indicated for a common Saint in MS61 are very inflated, and much higher than what is being realized at auction. If you look at the auction prices for common double eagles from the B&M auction on Nov 5, an MS61 Saint sold for $1409. Multiple MS63 Saints sold for $1466, and MS63 Liberty double eagles also sold for $1466, including several in OGH’s. These auction prices include the “Buyers Premium.” Based on these results, the premiums are continuing to shrink as the price of gold increases.

 

Please link the PCGS OGH MS63 Double Eagle(s) that sold for $1466 with Buyer's Premium.

 

Generic $20 Libs in MS63 bring $1800-$1900 minimum on eBay and Heritage right now. Many are still over $2,000. A seller would net about $1175 based on your description.

 

Again, wait for the market makers to get back into the action. These are down right now but $1466 for MS63 $20 Lib? Seller's are getting well under melt value.

 

No problem. Here are the links...

 

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109583

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109584

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109585

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109586

 

[Coagman]

I think the deal of the day among the double eagles was a 1907-S PCGS MS64 which sold for $2415. Based on recent auction records, this date in this grade has been in the $3700-4000 range.

 

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109598

 

I was watching the auction closely since I consigned a few double eagles (not the 1904 MS63’s thankfully).

 

[FishyOne]

No problem. Here are the links...

 

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109583

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109584

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109585

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109586

 

Thanks. I found them after a bit of searching. Unbelievable...whoever consigned those pieces was probably hoping to net close to melt but they didn't even get near it.......

 

The amazing thing is even 1904s still bring close to $2000 on eBay or Heritage or Teletrade. I'll be watching and hope to grab one for under melt this week!

[Mark T]

No problem. Here are the links...

 

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109583

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109584

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109585

http://www.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=109586

 

Thanks. I found them after a bit of searching. Unbelievable...whoever consigned those pieces was probably hoping to net close to melt but they didn't even get near it.......

 

The amazing thing is even 1904s still bring close to $2000 on eBay or Heritage or Teletrade. I'll be watching and hope to grab one for under melt this week!

 

 

 

Actually the coins sold for more than melt.

With that said these prices are very low, I noticed the same thing with the Heritage Coin Fest Auction a few weeks ago. I was tempted to pick up a $ 20 MS 63 but decided against it the day the coin went up for sale.

 

[FishyOne]

 

Actually the coins sold for more than melt.

With that said these prices are very low, I noticed the same thing with the Heritage Coin Fest Auction a few weeks ago. I was tempted to pick up a $ 20 MS 63 but decided against it the day the coin went up for sale.

 

I realize they sold for slightly (+8%) over melt value but the seller ended up with well under melt value. These melt at $1350 or so today. The seller would have netted maybe $1250. I'm still shaking my head. It's been 2 years since these have gone that cheap and gold was $750/oz then............

[Mark T]

 

Actually the coins sold for more than melt.

With that said these prices are very low, I noticed the same thing with the Heritage Coin Fest Auction a few weeks ago. I was tempted to pick up a $ 20 MS 63 but decided against it the day the coin went up for sale.

 

I realize they sold for slightly (+8%) over melt value but the seller ended up with well under melt value. These melt at $1350 or so today. The seller would have netted maybe $1250. I'm still shaking my head. It's been 2 years since these have gone that cheap and gold was $750/oz then............

 

Do not assume that the seller paid a sellers premium , if the seller consigned a large number of coins then Bowers probably was willing to waive the sellers fee.

[MarkFeld]

 

Actually the coins sold for more than melt.

With that said these prices are very low, I noticed the same thing with the Heritage Coin Fest Auction a few weeks ago. I was tempted to pick up a $ 20 MS 63 but decided against it the day the coin went up for sale.

 

I realize they sold for slightly (+8%) over melt value but the seller ended up with well under melt value. These melt at $1350 or so today. The seller would have netted maybe $1250. I'm still shaking my head. It's been 2 years since these have gone that cheap and gold was $750/oz then............

 

Do not assume that the seller paid a sellers premium , if the seller consigned a large number of coins then Bowers probably was willing to waive the sellers fee.

True, but $1466 with the buyer's premium means they hammered at $1275. So even if he got 100% of hammer.....

 

By the way, there is currently a sight-unseen bid of $1815.

[Mark T]

 

Actually the coins sold for more than melt.

With that said these prices are very low, I noticed the same thing with the Heritage Coin Fest Auction a few weeks ago. I was tempted to pick up a $ 20 MS 63 but decided against it the day the coin went up for sale.

 

I realize they sold for slightly (+8%) over melt value but the seller ended up with well under melt value. These melt at $1350 or so today. The seller would have netted maybe $1250. I'm still shaking my head. It's been 2 years since these have gone that cheap and gold was $750/oz then............

 

Do not assume that the seller paid a sellers premium , if the seller consigned a large number of coins then Bowers probably was willing to waive the sellers fee.

True, but $1466 with the buyer's premium means they hammered at $1275. So even if he got 100% of hammer.....

 

By the way, there is currently a sight-unseen bid of $1815.

 

 

Ok , I was hit with the stupid stick when responding to this post, I forgot the price listed included buyer’s premium. The seller did get ripped on this pretty bad. My understanding is Bowers and Heritage will sometimes kick back a percentage of the buyer’s premium to a seller when they consign a large amount of coins.

[MarkFeld]

 

Actually the coins sold for more than melt.

With that said these prices are very low, I noticed the same thing with the Heritage Coin Fest Auction a few weeks ago. I was tempted to pick up a $ 20 MS 63 but decided against it the day the coin went up for sale.

 

I realize they sold for slightly (+8%) over melt value but the seller ended up with well under melt value. These melt at $1350 or so today. The seller would have netted maybe $1250. I'm still shaking my head. It's been 2 years since these have gone that cheap and gold was $750/oz then............

 

Do not assume that the seller paid a sellers premium , if the seller consigned a large number of coins then Bowers probably was willing to waive the sellers fee.

True, but $1466 with the buyer's premium means they hammered at $1275. So even if he got 100% of hammer.....

 

By the way, there is currently a sight-unseen bid of $1815.

 

 

Ok , I was hit with the stupid stick when responding to this post, I forgot the price listed included buyer’s premium. The seller did get ripped on this pretty bad. My understanding is Bowers and Heritage will sometimes kick back a percentage of the buyer’s premium to a seller when they consign a large amount of coins.

Your understanding is correct.