Opinions on this SLQ

[Dudley the 1st]

I'm wondering why this did not get a FH designation, it sure looks good enough.

[MarkFeld]

Perhaps it's there, but I don't see an ear hole.

[physics-fan3.14]

That is nowhere near FH. Sometimes, they are close and you question the designation - this is not one of those cases.

 

Extreme weakness to the point of missing bolts on the shield, missing chain mail on the breast, and much of her face detail is missing. Definitely not deserving of the FH.

[Dudley the 1st]

Hard to see with the photo, but in hand it's slight but there. But perhaps I'm seeing what I want to see.

[Dudley the 1st]

Even though this was supposed to be the best of the San Francisco mint issues , the weakness in the head and shield rivets are also typical. In hand the petals are visible in the head dress. I have a 28-S in 65 FH and this one is as detailed as that in the head dress. It has some very eye appealing toning. The reverse shot is not of this coin, I goofed on that. I'll see if I can upload the correct reverse.

[MarkFeld]

That is nowhere near FH. Sometimes, they are close and you question the designation - this is not one of those cases.

 

Extreme weakness to the point of missing bolts on the shield, missing chain mail on the breast, and much of her face detail is missing. Definitely not deserving of the FH.

It looks pretty close to FH to me.

 

And most the areas of weakness you mentioned have nothing to do with whether the coin is FH or not. Many Standing Liberty Quarters have FH, but striking weakness in other areas.

[Dudley the 1st]

Yes, I say it's terribly close. also appears to be the Large S variety . I;m uncertain which is more common the large or small S .

[BROADSTRUCK]

That is nowhere near FH. Sometimes, they are close and you question the designation - this is not one of those cases.

 

Extreme weakness to the point of missing bolts on the shield, missing chain mail on the breast, and much of her face detail is missing. Definitely not deserving of the FH.

 

That's almost a full head as it's about 90% there. The 29 San Fran's are a real strike disasters like most branch mint SLQ's. What I like on this example is that the inner shield has visible lines which are missing on many 29-S's.

 

Here's a PCGS MS66FH which is a better then average strike for the date and it's also missing some shield details.

 

 

The best shield details I've seen on a 29-S is on my uncentered broadstrike.

 

 

 

 

[Dudley the 1st]

That is a very cool coin. I saw one that recently sold at the Stacks Sale.

[BROADSTRUCK]

That is a very cool coin. I saw one that recently sold at the Stacks Sale.

 

Thanks Dudley, The Stacks O/C SLQ didn't sell as the reserve was not meet, it's now back at DLRC at $21.5K.

[James_OldeTowne]

I have a very finicky client putting together an unbelievably carefully assembled set, put together with all emphasis on sharpness. Having looked at A TON of these, the 1929-S and 1930-S are easily two of the toughest to find nicely struck. I have surely looked at hundreds of each, and yet to find one of either date with a full shield, which is my client's primary focus.

 

Yours is very nice, but decidedly not a FH candidate, in my opinion. The delineation between hair and forehead is not sharp, and there is no apparent ear hole.

[Dudley the 1st]

WOW ! That broadstruck is some Coin. I can only wish to own that one.

[Dudley the 1st]

I have a very finicky client putting together an unbelievably carefully assembled set, put together with all emphasis on sharpness. Having looked at A TON of these, the 1929-S and 1930-S are easily two of the toughest to find nicely struck. I have surely looked at hundreds of each, and yet to find one of either date with a full shield, which is my client's primary focus.

 

Yours is very nice, but decidedly not a FH candidate, in my opinion. The delineation between hair and forehead is not sharp, and there is no apparent ear hole.

 

It is there, just not visible through these auction pics. I have NGC examples in 65FH, 66 and 67, and this 67 has more head detail than does my 66 . I love the coin as is, and happy to have it in my collection, regardless. But I think this really is a " just Missed" example. Thanks for all the opinions .

[Dudley the 1st]

. The delineation between hair and forehead is not sharp, and there is no apparent ear hole.

 

I'll agree to the first part , that area is not " sharp" .

[BillJones]

That is nowhere near FH. Sometimes, they are close and you question the designation - this is not one of those cases.

 

Extreme weakness to the point of missing bolts on the shield, missing chain mail on the breast, and much of her face detail is missing. Definitely not deserving of the FH.

 

I don't know if you collect Standing Liberty Quarters or not, but the sharpness of the head is the factor that determines the "full head" designation. If you think that you have to get full bolts, full gown and fulll chain mail with a "full head" you are going to be disappointed. If that's your standard, you won't be able to collect many of the coins in the series no matter how rich you are; many date and mint mark combinations don't exist that way.

 

The coin that started this thread is an attractive near full head example, but it does not have the ear hole and other details that are required. It's a nice coin, but it's also a near miss.

[James_OldeTowne]

If you think that you have to get full bolts, full gown and fulll chain mail with a "full head" you are going to be disappointed. If that's your standard, you won't be able to collect many of the coins in the series no matter how rich you are; many date and mint mark combinations don't exist that way.

There are thirty-eight coins in the series the way my client is collecting them. I have been able to locate a "full-head/full-rivet" coin for every single date except ten of them, which is a success rate of almost 75%.

 

I am pretty confident that five of those are truly impossible to locate with struck rivets, but the other five have offered tantalizing possibilities....

 

And no, I won't divulge which ones are the true keys in that regard!

[BillJones]

Yes, James, and I'll bet that you client is one of those who is willing to pay strong premiums for "perfectly struck" SLQs like that. The customers I had got their hands caught in their pockets and would not pay for this truly exceptional material that should be labeled "beyond Full Head."

 

Most "Full Head" quarters would not reach this high standard.

[Mark T]

That is nowhere near FH. Sometimes, they are close and you question the designation - this is not one of those cases.

 

Extreme weakness to the point of missing bolts on the shield, missing chain mail on the breast, and much of her face detail is missing. Definitely not deserving of the FH.

 

For this date and mint mark the soft shield is common and has nothing to do with the FH designation. The missing chain mail is also not a factor.

I am sure you knew this and most likely just posted separate to the FH explanation. The 1929-s is known for a lousy strike This coin does not have good separation from the head to the temple . I cannot see an ear hole either. The Olive leafs are also not complete down to the hairline. Approximately 5 % of this date and mint mark were stuck with a FH .Considering the poor strike known for the S mint on this date I would say you are close but just a bit shy for the minimum required for a FH designation.

[Dudley the 1st]

That is nowhere near FH. Sometimes, they are close and you question the designation - this is not one of those cases.

 

Extreme weakness to the point of missing bolts on the shield, missing chain mail on the breast, and much of her face detail is missing. Definitely not deserving of the FH.

 

For this date and mint mark the soft shield is common and has nothing to do with the FH designation. The missing chain mail is also not a factor.

I am sure you knew this and most likely just posted separate to the FH explanation. The 1929-s is known for a lousy strike This coin does not have good separation from the head to the temple . I cannot see an ear hole either. The Olive leafs are also not complete down to the hairline. Approximately 5 % of this date and mint mark were stuck with a FH .Considering the poor strike known for the S mint on this date I would say you are close but just a bit shy for the minimum required for a FH designation.

 

Thank you for your input. All three leafs are visible , coin in hand. I think your correct though, this is a just missed coin.

[James_OldeTowne]

Yes, James, and I'll bet that you client is one of those who is willing to pay strong premiums for "perfectly struck" SLQs like that. The customers I had got their hands caught in their pockets and would not pay for this truly exceptional material that should be labeled "beyond Full Head."

 

Most "Full Head" quarters would not reach this high standard.

It is true that he definitely has "stretched" on a few of the coins, significantly in a couple of cases! The good news, though, is that over the years, I have cherry-picked most of his superb pieces. This goes back to coin "dealers" who are actually clueless about coins. They might pick up an absolutely amazing SLQ certified as full-head, not realize that it also has full shield details, and not price it a premium! All they do is look at the greysheet, mark up 20% over "ask", and that's the extent of their numismatic knowledge.

 

I'll give another insight: I have not bought a single coin from J H Cline for this client. Why? Well, it's certainly nothing against Mr. Cline, because I have enjoyed a number of conversations with him, but rather, it's because he knows when a coin is special, and knows to mark it up appropriately. I deeply respect that of course, but if I can cherry-pick a coin just as nice from a dealer who prefers to remain clueless, then obviously I will do that. (Incidentally, I have bought a couple of AU SLQs for my own collection from Mr. Cline.)

 

One more insight: two of the best coins in the collection were cherry-picked from lesser slabs, one an ANACS, and one an ICG coin. They were superbly struck and looked properly graded to me, and I saved a bundle on both coins because the sellers were, again "clueless" and only knew as much as to look up greysheet and discount according to the brand on the slab. We successfully crossed both coins over to PCGS, thus enhancing their "market value" significantly.

 

I am certainly not slamming every dealer for being "clueless", but we all know that many of them know zilch about grading, and only know how to read the numbers on a slab. Those are the best guys to cherry-pick!!

 

Great points, Bill.

[Walkerfan]

Yes, James, and I'll bet that you client is one of those who is willing to pay strong premiums for "perfectly struck" SLQs like that. The customers I had got their hands caught in their pockets and would not pay for this truly exceptional material that should be labeled "beyond Full Head."

 

Most "Full Head" quarters would not reach this high standard.

It is true that he definitely has "stretched" on a few of the coins, significantly in a couple of cases! The good news, though, is that over the years, I have cherry-picked most of his superb pieces. This goes back to coin "dealers" who are actually clueless about coins. They might pick up an absolutely amazing SLQ certified as full-head, not realize that it also has full shield details, and not price it a premium! All they do is look at the greysheet, mark up 20% over "ask", and that's the extent of their numismatic knowledge.

 

I'll give another insight: I have not bought a single coin from J H Cline for this client. Why? Well, it's certainly nothing against Mr. Cline, because I have enjoyed a number of conversations with him, but rather, it's because he knows when a coin is special, and knows to mark it up appropriately. I deeply respect that of course, but if I can cherry-pick a coin just as nice from a dealer who prefers to remain clueless, then obviously I will do that. (Incidentally, I have bought a couple of AU SLQs for my own collection from Mr. Cline.)

 

One more insight: two of the best coins in the collection were cherry-picked from lesser slabs, one an ANACS, and one an ICG coin. They were superbly struck and looked properly graded to me, and I saved a bundle on both coins because the sellers were, again "clueless" and only knew as much as to look up greysheet and discount according to the brand on the slab. We successfully crossed both coins over to PCGS, thus enhancing their "market value" significantly.

 

I am certainly not slamming every dealer for being "clueless", but we all know that many of them know zilch about grading, and only know how to read the numbers on a slab. Those are the best guys to cherry-pick!!

 

Great points, Bill.

 

Interesting points and I firmly agree. In my experience, I have gotten some really hot deals from certain dealers on certain coins, and then, on other ones; they charge entirely too much and I must go elsewhere. Most dealers are inconsistent in their pricing (because it always depends on what THEY have into the coin. If they didn't get a good deal, then YOU certainly won't, either, b/c the savings or lack there of is passed on to the buyer plus the profit margin markup, of course. Dealers are no different than their buyers--they get good deals and sometimes bad ones.). I have to treat my purchases on a case by case basis---that's why I have dealt with so many different people.

 

SLQs are my second favorite series after Walkers and, someday, I may try my hand at them, b/c I feel that I know them pretty well. As Far As JH Cline is concerned; his coins are mostly ALL marked up MUCH too high and the only way that I would ever pay his ultra premiums, is if he had something that I could get NOWHERE else. Coin collecting and the registry game must be treated like any other business; you must be cost effective in your purchases in order to have more subsequent buying power and in order to be successful. Why throw your money away, when you don't have to?? Cash is KING and every bit helps.

 

BTW--Congrats on your crossovers!

 

PS--I agree with the majority--the coin in the first post is nice but is Not struck well enough to be labeled as FH.

[BROADSTRUCK]

Yes, James, and I'll bet that you client is one of those who is willing to pay strong premiums for "perfectly struck" SLQs like that. The customers I had got their hands caught in their pockets and would not pay for this truly exceptional material that should be labeled "beyond Full Head."

 

Most "Full Head" quarters would not reach this high standard.

It is true that he definitely has "stretched" on a few of the coins, significantly in a couple of cases! The good news, though, is that over the years, I have cherry-picked most of his superb pieces. This goes back to coin "dealers" who are actually clueless about coins. They might pick up an absolutely amazing SLQ certified as full-head, not realize that it also has full shield details, and not price it a premium! All they do is look at the greysheet, mark up 20% over "ask", and that's the extent of their numismatic knowledge.

 

I'll give another insight: I have not bought a single coin from J H Cline for this client. Why? Well, it's certainly nothing against Mr. Cline, because I have enjoyed a number of conversations with him, but rather, it's because he knows when a coin is special, and knows to mark it up appropriately. I deeply respect that of course, but if I can cherry-pick a coin just as nice from a dealer who prefers to remain clueless, then obviously I will do that. (Incidentally, I have bought a couple of AU SLQs for my own collection from Mr. Cline.)

 

One more insight: two of the best coins in the collection were cherry-picked from lesser slabs, one an ANACS, and one an ICG coin. They were superbly struck and looked properly graded to me, and I saved a bundle on both coins because the sellers were, again "clueless" and only knew as much as to look up greysheet and discount according to the brand on the slab. We successfully crossed both coins over to PCGS, thus enhancing their "market value" significantly.

 

I am certainly not slamming every dealer for being "clueless", but we all know that many of them know zilch about grading, and only know how to read the numbers on a slab. Those are the best guys to cherry-pick!!

 

Great points, Bill.

 

Interesting points and I firmly agree. In my experience, I have gotten some really hot deals from certain dealers on certain coins, and then, on other ones; they charge entirely too much and I must go elsewhere. Most dealers are inconsistent in their pricing (because it always depends on what THEY have into the coin. If they didn't get a good deal, then YOU certainly won't, either, b/c the savings or lack there of is passed on to the buyer plus the profit margin markup, of course. Dealers are no different than their buyers--they get good deals and sometimes bad ones.). I have to treat my purchases on a case by case basis---that's why I have dealt with so many different people.

 

SLQs are my second favorite series after Walkers and, someday, I may try my hand at them, b/c I feel that I know them pretty well. As Far As JH Cline is concerned; his coins are mostly ALL marked up MUCH too high and the only way that I would ever pay his ultra premiums, is if he had something that I could get NOWHERE else. Coin collecting and the registry game must be treated like any other business; you must be cost effective in your purchases in order to have more subsequent buying power and in order to be successful. Why throw your money away, when you don't have to?? Cash is KING and every bit helps.

 

BTW--Congrats on your crossovers!

 

PS--I agree with the majority--the coin in the first post is nice but is Not struck well enough to be labeled as FH.

 

 

Regarding Jay Cline's pricing or mark-ups...

 

I've dealt with Jay for 2 decades and he is the ONLY dealer on the browse floor of a show that instead of asking what I want... will make me an offer. If I place a couple of Ultimate FH's on his table he never turns to a sheet as he pays strong money for the right coins and on many occasions his offer far exceeds the price I had in mind.

 

The other thing to consider SLQ's like many other series are not really affected by price sheets or value guides. I'm playing with AU58FH's and a 1918-S for example is like a $450 coin. I've seen a good amount of the TPG pops of AU58FH's 18-S's and most to me are not true FH's. I located an Ultimate FH AU58 18-S 2-3 years ago with head details stronger then most MS65FH's. It's a very special coin and when viewing it in hand I've never regretted having had to cut a check for close to 3X to obtain it compared to what other examples in the same holder have sold at.

[physics-fan3.14]

Broadstruck, what is an "ultimate FH"?

[BROADSTRUCK]

Broadstruck, what is an "ultimate FH"?

 

Hi Physics-fan3.14, I'm away for the weekend and do not have access to many of my images. But if you study the details of the head below that as fully struck as it gets and is the cats meow which is called Ultimate.

 

[Mark T]

Broadstruck, what is an "ultimate FH"?

 

Diagnostic for Full Head and Ultimate Full Head for Type II SLQ’s

 

Quoted from Clines book.

 

Full Head Diagnostic:

 

Has a distinct line of separation of the hair from the temple, the cheekbone , and the throat area. It will also have an indentation or hole in the hair in the area of the ear. The three olive leaves will be complete down to the connecting point and perhaps raised in some very early strikes. (virtually flattened – especially on most S mintmarks) Otherwise the Olive leaves will be complete down to Miss Liberty’s hairline.

 

Ultimate Full Head – in addition to the above :

 

"All hair curls and twigs must be fully struck and rounded stems must appear on the twigs. Hair above Miss Liberty's ear must also be rounded and fully struck"

 

The coin Broadstruck posted is a great example of an Ultimate FH

 

 

[Dudley the 1st]

I wanted to update you folks who took the time to respond to my post. I had submitted this coin via William Panitch, Dealer in Rare coins to CAC. It came back today, unfortunately without green . CAC has approved only one and my coin is as very bit as detailed and eye appealing as that. If you care to make a comparison, the CAC coin can be found in the Heritage archive . I'm becoming a believer that it's truly the luck of the draw in dealing with these such services and has nothing at all to do with the coin. For example, how can one TPG refuse to grade a coin citing it was harshly cleaned and the other leading TPG assigns an MS 66 grade to the very same coin ? What's wrong with this picture ? Quite frankly, I don't think I'll ever pay a TPG for grading again. I can't trust them to do what they claim they do, which is to accurately asses the coins merits and assign the proper grade.

[James_OldeTowne]

I wanted to update you folks who took the time to respond to my post. I had submitted this coin via William Panitch, Dealer in Rare coins to CAC. It came back today, unfortunately without green . CAC has approved only one and my coin is as very bit as detailed and eye appealing as that. If you care to make a comparison, the CAC coin can be found in the Heritage archive . I'm becoming a believer that it's truly the luck of the draw in dealing with these such services and has nothing at all to do with the coin. For example, how can one TPG refuse to grade a coin citing it was harshly cleaned and the other leading TPG assigns an MS 66 grade to the very same coin ? What's wrong with this picture ? Quite frankly, I don't think I'll ever pay a TPG for grading again. I can't trust them to do what they claim they do, which is to accurately asses the coins merits and assign the proper grade.

Grading is very much subjective, so why worry about what someone else thinks? Assuming you bought the coin because you liked it and plan to enjoy it, and reselling is not an issue, does it really matter if CAC stickers the slab, or if other collectors or dealers think it's fantastic? The coin already suffers one often-necessary distraction (a slab) - no need to add another (a sticker) when what you really care about is something else altogether (the coin).

[Dudley the 1st]

Here is the Heritage photo of the only CAC approved 1918 SLQ and here is my 1918 NGC MS67 , which failed the CAC test. Hmmm What appears to be scratches are on the holder,the coin is completely clean on the surfaces. I'll see if I can get that rev. photo. Yep, they say it failed the CAC test.

[Walkerfan]

I wanted to update you folks who took the time to respond to my post. I had submitted this coin via William Panitch, Dealer in Rare coins to CAC. It came back today, unfortunately without green . CAC has approved only one and my coin is as very bit as detailed and eye appealing as that. If you care to make a comparison, the CAC coin can be found in the Heritage archive . I'm becoming a believer that it's truly the luck of the draw in dealing with these such services and has nothing at all to do with the coin. For example, how can one TPG refuse to grade a coin citing it was harshly cleaned and the other leading TPG assigns an MS 66 grade to the very same coin ? What's wrong with this picture ? Quite frankly, I don't think I'll ever pay a TPG for grading again. I can't trust them to do what they claim they do, which is to accurately asses the coins merits and assign the proper grade.

Grading is very much subjective, so why worry about what someone else thinks? Assuming you bought the coin because you liked it and plan to enjoy it, and reselling is not an issue, does it really matter if CAC stickers the slab, or if other collectors or dealers think it's fantastic? The coin already suffers one often-necessary distraction (a slab) - no need to add another (a sticker) when what you really care about is something else altogether (the coin).

 

CAC has stickered some SUPER nice coins and they have also stickered some real junk. It would be nice if a coin, that I was considering purchasing, had a CAC sticker on it, but if it didn't and I really like the TPGC certified slab, then I really couldn't care less. CAC is just a coin's meaningless accolade to me. 'Extra frosting on the cake'--so to speak. Just my opinion.

[Dudley the 1st]

I agree wholeheartedly. At least I have proof now, that it really does come down to how a grader feels on any given day. I have the pictures to prove it !