Counterfeit Draped Bust in a Counterfeit Pronged Holder?

[physics-fan3.14]

This coin just does not look right, but it is in a pronged holder. Is the holder bad too?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330461179783&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

 

Hmm.... it checks out on the NGC census, and the coin appears to be the same.

 

What am I missing here?

 

[Mark T]

What do you not like about the coin ??

[WoodenJefferson]

I have seen XF flowing hair's with just one side worn as such, but never both sides...perplexing.

 

At the time of minting, the coin blanks were very crude and still being adjusted by hand file.

[Coinsman63]

Is it just me, or is the reverse rotated off center?

[Mark T]

Looks rotated - this is not uncommon for these coins.

[FILTHYHOARD]

Looks legit to me

[physics-fan3.14]

What do you not like about the coin ??

 

The obverse especially looks weird. The dentils look strange, and the whole feel reminds me of Chinese coins. Plus the wear pattern looks unusual for an EF-40.

 

It may be perfectly fine, but it didn't look right to me.

[JIM F.]

Looks polished, but that may just be the pictures. Have you given it a ring test?

[physics-fan3.14]

Looks polished, but that may just be the pictures. Have you given it a ring test?

 

It is not mine.

[MarkFeld]

It looks like a cleaned, but genuine coin to me. Sometimes images can make dentils and other details look odd.

[JIM F.]

By the way, I am working on a "ring test" through a TPG holder!

 

[michael]

the label is an older label and not part of the new label pronged holder??

 

photoshopped label??

 

 

 

[Coindude]

I have to agree, I'm surprised it graded in a non problem holder, but it looks genuine.

[okbustchaser]

It is Overton 109a...the reverse die is rotated to the point that the eagle's head was directly opposite the main hair curls on the obverse resulting in not enough metal being available to fully strike up either side. All of the examples I have seen from this die state are struck in this manner. Based on the amount of wear visible on the rest of the coin I don't have a lot of problem with an XF grade--once one gets past the idea that cleaning is suposed to be a reason for a non-grade.

[James_OldeTowne]

It is Overton 109a...the reverse die is rotated to the point that the eagle's head was directly opposite the main hair curls on the obverse resulting in not enough metal being available to fully strike up either side. All of the examples I have seen from this die state are struck in this manner.

 

I agree, and also agree the coin is genuine. It is one of the toughest die-marriages to grade in the entire series. Sometimes, a really late die-state example will have practically VF details, yet most of the luster still remaining on both sides.

[Conder101]

the label is an older label and not part of the new label pronged holder??

Looks like a new type (pronged holder) label to me.

 

To me it looks good, lightly cleaned, and correctly grded considering the striking problems. (The central details are weak/missing, but the rims and stars show very little wear.)

[michael]

wow i see what you are saying and it is a rare coin, genuine but

weakly struck as per the die variety and cleaned

 

 

but man it is one ugly/fugly coin

[WoodenJefferson]

It is Overton 109a...the reverse die is rotated to the point that the eagle's head was directly opposite the main hair curls on the obverse resulting in not enough metal being available to fully strike up either side. All of the examples I have seen from this die state are struck in this manner. Based on the amount of wear visible on the rest of the coin I don't have a lot of problem with an XF grade--once one gets past the idea that cleaning is suposed to be a reason for a non-grade. [/quote

 

This makes total sense then. Thanks for your expertise.

[Nysoto]

The obverse die in 1807 O109a is sunken so much that a coin can be rocked back and forth on a flat table with the obverse down (sunken obv die = convex obv on coin). All 109a's have extreme central weakness, the worst strike of the 1807 varieties. The OP coin is a mid die stage, later stages will have chips at S2 and S4. I have five examples of 1807 O109a, they are all oversize by about 1mm.

 

The early state of this die marriage is rare as the obv die failed quickly. The Queller 1807 O109 example is now in a PCGS Specimen slab, it has concentric raised lines that are not aligned over the center dot, as all 109/109a's have. A very unusual die pairing.

[MBA101]

Here is mine...for comparison

 

[CaptHenway]

Looks OK to me.

TD