NGC's Variety plus

[prudden]

Hey all,

 

I've got a couple of raw UNC 1878 7/8 Morgans. Does anyone recommend the "Variety plus" service offered by NGC.For Morgans,the service guarantes the VAM and NGC adds some text to the label..One is a VAM 33 the other is VAM 37.The VAM 37 has really nice remnants of the 5 TF.I think it's considered one of the "Strong" 7/8 varieties,while the 33 is a "weak" variety. I just noticed the cost went from $7.00 to $10.00 for each coin over the grading fee.. So,is it worth it? Thanks

[Mozin]

PCGS gets $24 for the variety attribution service.

[cpm9ball]

As long as they are "Top 100" or "Hot 50" VAM's, go for it. NGC won't attribute any others, but that is understandable.

 

Chris

[DWLange]

In addition to Top 100 and Hot 50 Morgan VAMS, we also attribute all 1878 8TF and 7/8TF varieties, as well as selected other VAMs. We do not recognize the Hit List 40 and Elite Clashed VAMs.

 

See the VP page on our website for a complete listing. It's found under the RESEARCH tab at the home page.

[prudden]

In addition to Top 100 and Hot 50 Morgan VAMS, we also attribute all 1878 8TF and 7/8TF varieties, as well as selected other VAMs. We do not recognize the Hit List 40 and Elite Clashed VAMs.

 

See the VP page on our website for a complete listing. It's found under the RESEARCH tab at the home page.

 

Thank you.After I posted I did find most of the info I needed to make a decision.I have to get into the habit of looking further for answers rather than asking a question first. Yes,I did find that most 1878 VAMs are covered.It's just some minor varieties they won't add.Like VAM 33A which is virtually the same as VAM 33 except the heavily clashed obverse by the nose and mouth. It's amazing to me that PCGS would charge so much($24.00),basically a full grading fee for his service. I wonder how they are doing with it. Definitely not worth that much.$10.00 is doable.

[cpm9ball]

In addition to Top 100 and Hot 50 Morgan VAMS, we also attribute all 1878 8TF and 7/8TF varieties, as well as selected other VAMs. We do not recognize the Hit List 40 and Elite Clashed VAMs.

 

See the VP page on our website for a complete listing. It's found under the RESEARCH tab at the home page.

 

Thanks, David! I knew I was forgetting something.

 

Chris

[messydesk]

The big difference is that PCGS guarantees their attributions (with money), while NGC does not. For VAMs that carry a premium (neither 1878 VAM 33 nor VAM 37 do), very few VAM collectors will buy an NGC-attributed coin sight-unseen.

 

(Full disclosure: I also do VAM attribution for $.)

[cpm9ball]

The big difference is that PCGS guarantees their attributions (with money), while NGC does not. For VAMs that carry a premium (neither 1878 VAM 33 nor VAM 37 do), very few VAM collectors will buy an NGC-attributed coin sight-unseen.

 

(Full disclosure: I also do VAM attribution for $.)

 

Messy,

 

Hypothetical Situation

Suppose you owned a BMW dealership, and one of the stipulations of your lifetime warranty for free repairs was that all repairs must be performed by an official BMW mechanic. Now, Joe Lazy, decides that he doesn't want to drive all the way across town to your dealership so he has El Cheapo Garage give his Beemer a tune-up. Unfortunately, the El Cheapo mechanic messes up the timing, and Joe Lazy is forced to take the car to the Beemer dealer to correct the problem. He is furious when he is presented a bill for $980, and he demands to know why the repairs weren't free as stated in the warranty. Should the Beemer dealership waive the charge after an incompetent mechanic worked on the car?

 

The problem with VAMWorld is that there are too many "el cheapo mechanics" working on the website listings and many of those listings seem to get messed up as a result. It doesn't matter that there are those members charged with the responsibility of ensuring the accuracy of the listings. If it were 100% foolproof, there wouldn't be any mistakes, but there are anyway. I can fully understand why NGC is reluctant to want to expand their VAM attributions.

 

I happen to be a life member of the SSDC, and I'm not very proud of the way some of you conduct yourselves. So, why don't you find another street corner from which to peddle your Kool-Aid.

 

Chris

[prudden]

snip

 

I happen to be a life member of the SSDC, and I'm not very proud of the way some of you conduct yourselves. So, why don't you find another street corner from which to peddle your Kool-Aid.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

Who were you referring to?

 

Well,I did not know about the PCGS guarantee.Has I still think PCGS price is too high considering you basically point them at the target and they either verify or decline.I'm not too worried about it because right now I can't afford memberships at both services.Whatever,I'll fill up my labels with whatever is offered if I feel like doing that.

[cpm9ball]

snip

 

I happen to be a life member of the SSDC, and I'm not very proud of the way some of you conduct yourselves. So, why don't you find another street corner from which to peddle your Kool-Aid.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

Who were you referring to?

 

Well,I did not know about the PCGS guarantee.Has I still think PCGS price is too high considering you basically point them at the target and they either verify or decline.I'm not too worried about it because right now I can't afford memberships at both services.Whatever,I'll fill up my labels with whatever is offered if I feel like doing that.

 

Messydesk!

 

Read this earlier thread of mine. You don't have to read every post, but be sure to read my opener and the repsonse from David Lange.

 

Chris

[messydesk]

Excuse me? Not peddling Kool-Aid, just stating the facts as they are. I have nothing to gain by pumping PCGS for attribution over NGC. If NGC has started guaranteeing the accuracy of their attributions, then I stand corrected. Otherwise, to answer Prudden's question again, the difference in cost could very well be explained by the fact that PCGS expects to have to make good on a mistake once in a while.

 

Yes, the VAMWorld listings do get a little messed up now and then, but I've only found this to be a problem with the more obscure VAMs that neither PCGS not NGC want anything to do with. The attributers of both companies also know better than to rely on VAMWorld, but rather on official lists with good descriptions in published books with photographs that aren't subject to being edited by a well-meaning member of a wiki.

 

For coins like the 7/8 VAM 33 and 37, where there is no premium over a "generic" 1878 7/8 TF, paying the $24 to PCGS doesn't buy you much, and the only reason I can see for paying it is if you're into their registry game. If I'm buying an 1878 VAM 14.17 attributed, however, you'd better believe I'm going to either want an attribution guarantee or a good, long look at the coin so that I and a couple others can verify the attribution before buying it. Likewise, if I'm going to be in the position to sell that coin, or to stick someone else with selling it, I'm going to spend the extra $14. The sad truth is that NGC has made enough attribution mistakes in the past in cases where the listings were stable that they now have a reputation only they can clean up, and only if they want to.

[Yaha]

I will offer facts instead of Hypos for the real collector in any hobby..

 

As I don't know a lot about VAM's in general because that's not my thing, pretty cool issue though. I do though take time to get a loupe and when I find a coin that has something on it, I photo it and view it under 600+ zoom and do my research..

 

I feel PCGS is offering the price of $24 to sway no doubt their opinion is right.. As to NGC, their is opinion is also correct in a sense @$10.

 

So, the message I am offering to anyone that seeks the factual label they need, learn, educate yourself to be able to ID the VAMs or other errors yourself.. Apples/$10 to Oranges/$24 for a third party guarantee opinion is ludicrous.. 140% more profit? To PCGS.. ..

 

NGC will get my money for this same service everydad of the week.

 

P.S. Isn't Anacs the king of all TPG's in VAMMY world... I remember when I chased "SOME" years ago it seemed Anacs was the only place to go for this Variety..

[physics-fan3.14]

Yaha - ANACS used to be king for varieties and errors. But when the whole swithcaroo brouhaha erupted a couple/few years ago, they pretty much lost all credibility in every aspect. I hear ICG is rather credible now, which would make sense seeing as how all the ANACS people went to ICG. ICG is who CONECA uses to certify variety coins.

[DWLange]

I've resisted commenting on this thread, but I need to clarify matters. NGC did go through a bad period in attributions in recent years, but this has been completely fixed. I'm now doing all our variety attributions myself, as I did years ago when we began attributing VAMs in the 1990s. This is hard and often tedious work, but I'm determined to not let anything slip through incorrectly.

 

While NGC's guarantee does not cover variety attributions, I believe that anyone who has submitted VAMs during the past year or so has had nothing to complain about, unless it was that we won't attribute the flavor of the week.

[messydesk]

Thanks for clarifying, Dave. Hopefully these problems are all behind you now.

[cpm9ball]

David,

 

I stopped participating on the VAMWorld site earlier this year because I got fed up with others continually "slamming" NGC. Hardly a week went by that someone didn't complain about NGC's inability to attribute or the fact that NGC wouldn't attribute more VAM's. Then they continued because NGC wouldn't warranty the attribuitions. It even got to the point when some of the members started complaining that NGC didn't know how to grade. Every tirade that was posted was generally accepted by all, and no one had the guts to step up and say, "Okay, enough is enough!" It was totally inappropriate and unprofessional.

 

I don't like hypocrites who are more concerned about furthering their own agendas at the expense of others.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[prudden]

Thanks David. In my case,I just want the correct VAMs and not necessarily the one I bet on.

[physics-fan3.14]

Dave - I love it when a company honestly and openly admits their mistakes and tells me what they are doing to fix or prevent them. Thank you.