A coin to discuss, not oooh and ahhh over

[MarkFeld]

I posted this on "the other board" a few days ago.

 

For those of you who did not comment on it already, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, if you care to share them.

 

POST:

 

The coin linked below resides in a PCGS PR68 holder. It is one of 8 of this date and one of 47 (including 4-Cameo's and 5-DCAM's) for the entire series, to have received such a rating from PCGS.

 

I have chosen it as an example of a coin which I believe is correctly graded on a technical basis, but which, quite frankly, doesn't do anything for me. In other words, it just doesn't have "the look" I want for a PR68 coin of this type. I believe this to be an example where "technical", rather than "market" grading was applied.

 

The coin, itself, is a tad lighter in person than in the images. In the obverse image, there is what appears to be a small, light stained area at the upper left portion of Liberty's neck. I don't think it is a stain, but rather, a slight variation in the color of the toning. There is, what looks to be a small white spot, equidistant between Liberty's nose and star 8 - I don't recall having seen it. Whatever it is, it is magnified by the images. There are also a couple of uneven color areas on the image of the lower reverse, but, to my recollection, it is only toning.

 

There are no noticeable hairlines, abrasions or other man-made imperfections on either side. On a technical basis, I have no problem with the coin as a PR68 or I wouldn't have purchased it. But, as I mentioned previously, I want more out of a PR68 Barber Half than this - I want to be "wowed" and "dazzled". Out of fairness to this coin, there are many others (of various types) in similar high grade holders, that I have the same complaint about.

 

This leads me to my questions to you, the forum members - what do you want or expect form a PR68 silver type coin? Also, what you do NOT want to see on a PR68 - what would cause you not to want it or buy it.

 

1909 Barber Half

[EVillageProwler]

From my post across the street:

 

Hmmm... Interesting poser.

 

I have always chosen eye appeal over technical grade (or any other individual aspect that makes up the grade of a coin). To me, there is no difference between a 66 or 69 if the coins themselves are mere product coins. If the coins just sit there and look blandly back at me, then I'll look blandly upon them. If the coins look at me with a dazzling smile, full of gleam and vibrancy, then I'll respond with the same smile.

 

If the coins show up dressed in their best party dresses, then I'll give an appreciative whistle.

 

If these coins happen by me, lost in their own thoughts and attired in a plain T-shirt and dungarees, then I won't take but a momentary glance.

 

I want coins with a positive, upbeat attitude. I want coins who can do a little dance, make a little love and generally get down tonight!

 

EVP

 

[Coinosaurus]

It's impossible to evaluate such a coin w/o seeing it in person. Offhand I can see what you are talking about from the scan, though - it does seem a bit drab.

 

I agree, a 68 coin like that should really grab you. I was looking at the Kaufmann proof seated dollars in the FUN sale (now posted on the Heritage site), and those appeared to be super eye-popping from the photos.

[CarlWohlforth]

I expect a PR 68 to have suberb fields, watery like you could dive in. I don't mind proof coins with that champagne toning I often see, actually I kind of like that. Is this one? It does seem flat. Also it looks like some carbon or other darker spots on the neck? But, for me, the depth of the fields is what makes a 67 a 68.

 

I have no doubt a PR 68 is expensive, and I haven't even checked your website to find out. I would prefer better cameo contrast. I'd rather have a lower grade coin that had better contrast with mirror like fields. But then again maybe this image makes the coin look dull?

[EZ_E]

I know what you mean. Although I can't answer your proof 68 question, I can identify with you. I purchased an 1879 S Morgan in ms 67 proof-like--certified of course. When I received it, I was extremely disappointed. There were hair lines all over it. Sure, technically it made the grade but it did absolutely nothing for me. So, I sent it back. I also received an ms 66 Morgan that same day that was beautiful, gorgeous, just amazing. A good rule of thumb which I learned on this forum is: if a coin doesn't appeal to you in the first 10 seconds then send it back. However, a Pr 68 Barber is a very good investment that may be worth holding on to.

[EZ_E]

. If the coins just sit there and look blandly back at me, then I'll look blandly upon them. If the coins look at me with a dazzling smile, full of gleam and vibrancy, then I'll respond with the same smile.

 

Wow, EVP, that's poetry!

 

Yet, it's a very sound philosophy.

[BillJones]

From the scan, I'd say this coin could be overgraded by as much as 4 points. It is totally cloudy on the obverse and only has a hint at 9 to 10 o'clock of the original Proof mirrors on the reverse. Maybe at certain angles the Proof mirrors show as they do on the Proof Barber quarter that I attached to this post. That coin has never been dipped but at certain angles it can look cloudy.

 

Still this coin does not impress me at all. It has definitely been dipped IMO, and that in and of itself would preclude it from reaching the PR-68 level. I have never seen an original Proof coin from this era with this look. A Proof-68 should been totally original (never dipped) and have a totally stunning appearance. This coins fails on both counts IMO. The absense of hairlines is not the only criterian for grading Proof coins.

 

It is what I would call an "emperor slab" - a term that Anthony Swiatek coined for overgraded coins that are worth a fraction of the price outside of the slab.

[BillJones]

Here's a 1909 Proof Barber half dollar that I sold recently. It is an NGC PR-63, Cameo. It has been dipped, and that are some slide marks on the cheek that don't show in the photo. Still for quite a bit less than $1,000 I'd say this coin is a better buy than the PR-68.

 

What do you think?

[prooflike]

Hi Mark,

 

I have an 1881-O Morgan that has just the opposite, it is in a PCGS MS64 holder that technically is an MS65 but just doesn't have the "look" of a 65. One factor on this date/mint is the price jump between 64 & 65.

 

Jeff

[Gunsmoke]

I want coins with a positive, upbeat attitude. I want coins who can do a little dance, make a little love and generally get down tonight!

 

Scary....very scary

[keithdagen]

Mark,

 

This coin is a great example of why I'm not a big fan of Proofs.

 

The coin has toned to a hazy, dull color, from looking at the scans, and doesn't have enough contrast to show any cameo surfaces. Since the toning isn't colorful, it just appears to be a mark-free, yet dull coin.

 

For a PR-68 grade for classic proofs, I want a coin that is alive -- either vibrant colors or mirror-like finishes. Those will get me to notice a coin a lot faster than the grade will. If looking at this piece in a dealer's case, my eyes would pass it and never look back.

[John Maben]

This is a perfect example of why I do not put credence in images for grading purposes. Using only the images, the Feld coin looks like a 66CA and the Jones coin looks like a 67CA and I am quite certain I'd have a different opinion of both coins if I were holding them in my hand.

 

John

[BankNote1]

The coin looks very mark free as it should for such a high grade! I have always had trouble trying to figure out what a coin has to have to be '65 or better. I see high grade coins all the time ('66 or better) that I wouldn't pay '63 money for.

IMO for a coin to grade PF68, I guess I would want my socks knocked off!! Not only perfect but blazing luster, super strike, and deep mirrors!

[Dog97]

Hi Mark!

Even though it's not a 97 I still enjoy looking at all Barbers and I'll put in my 2¢ worth.

I agree with you on the technical aspects of the 68 grade but on WOW apeal it's lacking slightly-I give it low /med appeal.

First thing I see is the color, a neutral gold which screams dipped. I don't have a problem with dipped coins but they need to be blast white, not the tell tale gold color. I would just as soon have the typical dark non-lovely Barber tone because at least that would be original. I have a pet peeve about originality, especially when the coin costs thousands.

It was probably dipped in an attempt to remove the fingerprint which goes from the last 9 to right star #2 and up to Liberty's chin. The black specks on the neck that were dipped off but have come back kills it too.That's another pet peeve of mine, fingerprints, I won't have finger prints on my Proof 68. Maybe on a $50 album toned eBay Morgan but not a $10K coin. I don't see much cameo, personally I like cameo Proofs. Brilliant and 1 sided cams are a dime a dozen.

The rev looks cam, maybe it's just the glare from the lighting but too bad the obv doesn't look like that. The smudge by HALF and the spot by U in UNITED looks bad on a 68 too. The junk by the arrows and ICA look bad too.

The coin is a just made it borderliner and I would like it better in a 67 holder but you couldn't sell it to me even if it was in a 65 holder.

Oh yeah, people said you can't judge a coin by a scan but keep in mind what I said about this one because YOU might be the one selling me my next Pinnacle coin.

 

[Hoot]

what do you want or expect form a PR68 silver type coin?

 

BankNote1 said it - blazing luster, amazing strike, deep watery fields. Oh, and some natural toning!

 

Hoot

[MarkFeld]

Thanks for all of the replies, gentlemen.

 

EVP - I love your comments below and am still humming the tune you have put in my head, with your last two lines :

 

" If the coins just sit there and look blandly back at me, then I'll look blandly upon them. If the coins look at me with a dazzling smile, full of gleam and vibrancy, then I'll respond with the same smile.

 

If the coins show up dressed in their best party dresses, then I'll give an appreciative whistle.

 

If these coins happen by me, lost in their own thoughts and attired in a plain T-shirt and dungarees, then I won't take but a momentary glance.

 

I want coins with a positive, upbeat attitude. I want coins who can do a little dance, make a little love and generally get down tonight!"

 

Coinosaurus - I agree with you - I want to be grabbed by a 68 coin!

 

Carl - in answer to your questions - the coin is a light champagne color, there are no spots on the neck (just a bit of uneven color) and the coin is more reflective than the images indicate. I like your analogy about "diving" into the "watery fields" of a PR68.

 

 

victoreasley - I agree with your point "A good rule of thumb which I learned on this forum is: if a coin doesn't appeal to you in the first 10 seconds then send it back."

 

Maybe 11 seconds, instead of 10, though?

 

 

BillJones - The coin does look better in person and, I disagree that a PR68 coin should/can not have been dipped. But I respect your opinion, just the same.

 

Keith - You make a good point, too "For a PR-68 grade for classic proofs, I want a coin that is alive -- either vibrant colors or mirror-like finishes. Those will get me to notice a coin a lot faster than the grade will."

 

Mr. Maben - I don't put much credence into images either but felt this was a good opportunity to discuss the difference between "technical" and "market" grading.

 

BankNote1 - your request/requirement for a PR68 "I guess I would want my socks knocked off!!" might not be possible but it is reasonable!.

 

Dog - what if I had the date changed to an 1897? I thought not - oh well. And, I do promise to keep in mind what you said, I assure you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EVillageProwler]

Mark,

 

Tell the truth: in your best bell bottoms, you used to boogie woogie til you just can't woogie no more to the beat of K.C. and the Sunshine Band!

 

 

EVP

 

[MarkFeld]

EVP - I will tell the truth, in answer to your question: In one word, NO!

[Guest]

Looks gem.

[mrkelso]

There is a spot on the neck below the ear. Is that actually on the coin or is it a product of the scan or pic or is it the start of toning?