How good is NGC at slabbing foreign coins?

[1jester]

I'm considering sending in a bunch of coins to be slabbed. Mostly they are medieval (1500s) but some are moderns, including rare/unique patterns. Metals include gold, silver, and copper/bronze, and even brass.

 

What's your experience with NGC regarding their attribution abilities, and grading abilities? Do you have any specific recommendations or advice/hints/pointers?

 

Thank you!

[Fairlaneman]

Darkside in a Slab ? You posted this just in Jest...correct ?

 

[1jester]

 

SHHHHHHHH.....Don't let the rumor get out.....

[JamminJ]

What's your experience with NGC regarding their attribution abilities, and grading abilities? Do you have any specific recommendations or advice/hints/pointers?

 

I've sent one batch through and was happy enough I'm preparing a second larger batch.

 

Overall, I thought the grading to be a bit loose compared to mine, especially on older coins (pre 1800), but pretty much right on after 1800. The preceived looseness may just be from my inability thus far to tell wear from strike on roller die coins.

 

They are fairly forgiving of cleaning on coins from the 1700s and 1600s, although you may be left wondering why some slabbed and some didn't.

 

Attributions are so-so. To the minus side they got a mint wrong on one of mine by calling an Ensisheim a Furth. To the plus they will list Krasue numbers for easy identification on coins where there are several similar types.

 

Rememeber I'm generalizing off of a very sample size of 11 coins so your results can be expected to vary.

 

Overall I think they offer a good service for a fair price. Why not try them out on a few an see how you like them.

 

-JamminJ

[truthteller]

Unfortunately, NGC does not know how to grade foreign. They have very, very loose standards. I visited a dealer recently who sent a package of better foreign and just received them back. I was dumbfounded. Coins that were CH XF(european grading) came back MS62-63, and were priced accordingly. Now VF in an XF holder, I can understand. But XF in a MS holder? There were about 20 coins in the lot. Very dissappointing. PCGS isn't much better, and substantially worse when it comes to MS 60-65. Funny thing is no collector of foreign will touch these coins and they will sit forever without a home.

 

 

TRUTH

[JamminJ]

I thought everyone already knew that European standards are far, far tougher than US. How do you think they did on comparison to US standards?

 

-JamminJ

 

Edited beacsue I canot spel.

[gmarguli]

Unfortunately, NGC does not know how to grade foreign. They have very, very loose standards. I visited a dealer recently who sent a package of better foreign and just received them back. I was dumbfounded. Coins that were CH XF(european grading) came back MS62-63, and were priced accordingly.

 

Everyone has their own standard. Consistency is all that matters.

 

The EAC people think all the slabbers can't grade copper. The Euro people think they can't grade foreign. As a US style grader I think the Eruo graders are too tough and don't have enough grades and the EAC people are a bunch of snobish jerks. Who's right?

[truthteller]

For US and European standards, bottom line, if a coin has rub or wear on the high points, the coin is NOT uncirculated. NGC grades way to many foreign coins unc when the coin has wear. As far as european standards, NGC and PCGS don't use them, so it's irrelavent to the grading. However, the line between UNC and CIRC is clear for all grading, US and foreign standards. In addition, when a foreign coin is in a holder, it just doesn't matter what the holder says, and most foreign dealers will agree, the holder is simply an expensive protective case. However, most US dealers selling foreign coins will want to sell at the grade on the holder, which doesn't work most of the time, unless you use ebay.

 

 

TRUTH

[JamminJ]

For US and European standards, bottom line, if a coin has rub or wear on the high points, the coin is NOT uncirculated. NGC grades way to many foreign coins unc when the coin has wear.

 

I agree with that statement.

 

However, I don't think its only a foreign coin issue but a general one with TPG services. Just the other day there was a thread on the US coin forum discussing an NGC submission of early US copper coins by one of the Jade Coin guys. I remember the discussion on how one coins looked liked it would come back variously as AU58 and MS62 with an anti-normal statistical distribution.. Do you think NGC is worse with foreign coins?

 

-JamminJ

[truthteller]

From my experience, NGC and PCGS are both lenient when it comes to grading pre 1830's type and gold. Both services are atrocious when grading early bust coinage and I am very leary about purchasing any pre 1800's US coin without proper first hand inspection.

 

TRUTH

[1jester]

I have one coin that is only 5 mm in diameter. Can I even expect such a microscopic coin to be slabbed? I guess not.

 

I have another issue with NGC, and ANACS, and that is their use of white holders. That really gets on my nerves because you can't see the edge, which hides vital information on some coins. Granted, even clear holders that PCGS uses don't allow one to easily see the edge, but there should be a way to combat this problem, and using white certainly isn't the way.

 

 

[gmarguli]

I have one coin that is only 5 mm in diameter. Can I even expect such a microscopic coin to be slabbed? I guess not.

 

5mm? Are you sure it is a coin and not a speck of dust? The 3c silver are about 14mm. I've got a Turkey Para slabbed and I think it is smaller. How big are the Panama Pills.

[JamminJ]

I have one coin that is only 5 mm in diameter. Can I even expect such a microscopic coin to be slabbed? I guess not.

 

Let me guess, a fractional gold ducat? Very fractional, like 1/32?

 

-JamminJ

[1jester]

I think the Panama Pills are about 10-11 mm. I forgot, and have never had one in my hand in fact.

 

JJ is right, mine is a 1/32 ducat from Nurnberg, 1700. It's no bigger than the numbers lock light bulb on your keyboard. Yes, a speck!!!

[gmarguli]

Let me guess, a fractional gold ducat? Very fractional, like 1/32?

 

NGC is now doing US Fractional Gold and that is really small. Perhaps they could do this?

 

I know if you ask the size limitations of their slabs on the Ask NGC forum you will get an answer.

[1jester]

I'm afraid it would even get lost in the slab somewhere!!

[truthteller]

Attach the coin to a breadcrumb, then it is sure to get graded.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[syracusian]

On the subject of grading foreign coins by TPGs: I personally believe that ANACS is the toughest and most consistent service, and as close to European standards as it gets. Most of my (1828-1930 Greek) coins are slabbed by ANACS, a job that took me 5+ years, since almost all of them were bought raw and submitting coins from Europe can become a very complicated issue. The submitter might be asked to pay VAT on the value of his own coins, not the grading fees only! I've submitted them because I believed in TPGs from day 1 , I wanted to confirm/improve my own grading skills ( I've learned quite a few valuable lessons from ANACS , especially on cleaned or altered coins) and of course for protection.

 

While I was in Baltimore last August, during the ANA show, I submitted my usual average of 20 (mostly unc) coins per year (to ANACS) but decided to get a verbal opinion on three coins that were borderline unc . ANACS would have graded them AU58, MS60, AU58 and so I submitted them to NGC that graded them MS62, MS62,and MS60 respectively. My personal opinion was much closer to ANACS' , so I've cheated in a way, because the grades COUNT when it comes to resell them and that's that.

 

As a general rule, I'll now submit my coins to NGC, not only because of the possible higher grades but also because NGC seems to bring higher prices ,having become the leader of the (evergrowing) foreign coins slabbed market (check out eBay's listings with keywords NGC and PCGS), but if I had to choose between already slabbed coins, ANACS would be my first choice,without a doubt.

 

 

[gmarguli]

While I was in Baltimore last August, during the ANA show, I submitted my usual average of 20 (mostly unc) coins per year (to ANACS) but decided to get a verbal opinion on three coins that were borderline unc . ANACS would have graded them AU58, MS60, AU58 and so I submitted them to NGC that graded them MS62, MS62,and MS60 respectively. My personal opinion was much closer to ANACS' , so I've cheated in a way, because the grades COUNT when it comes to resell them and that's that.

 

Be careful with the ANACS verbal grades. They usually tend to be very conservative at shows. I've shown them slabbed coins and they have given opinions 1-3 grades below the slabbed grade.

[1jester]

Dimitri, not to take away from the Europeans' supposed high grading standards, but I think this is an excellent chance to dispel any rumors that Europeans have higher collecting standards than Americans.

 

Actually, I don't want to start a fight, but the first thing an American learns is to never touch a coin except by the edges. How can Europeans be so "professional" and ignore this most basic precept? It's been my experience for many years that even the most "professional" of Europeans thinks absolutely nothing of taking a coin and rubbing it around in their fingers while they handle it. I've yet to see even one European handle a coin correctly. This is a sad account of affairs here in Europe, but until Europeans learn to handle coins correctly, they will never gain even one grain of respect in my eyes.

 

Another issue of professionalism has to do with the use of PVC, where in Europe it's the rule to use PVC. PVC destroys coins, so until people shun its use in numismatics, they cannot be considered professional. Granted, too many in the States do the same.

 

Grading standards are admittedly a different issue, but I would take any alleged superiority of Europeans with a grain of salt until they start to respect the coin.

 

Dimitri, please don't take this personally. It's just a long time observation. I'm trying to advance numismatics, and awareness of the problem is the first step in solving it.

 

[1jester]

I've been told by NGC that they can go as small as 9-10mm in diameter, but not as small as 5mm. So I guess I can't have this coin slabbed.

[JamminJ]

How can Europeans be so "professional" and ignore this most basic precept? It's been my experience for many years that even the most "professional" of Europeans thinks absolutely nothing of taking a coin and rubbing it around in their fingers while they handle it. I've yet to see even one European handle a coin correctly. This is a sad account of affairs here in Europe, but until Europeans learn to handle coins correctly, they will never gain even one grain of respect in my eyes.

 

This practice is also pretty common among US dealers of foreign coins. At the last big coin show I attended several dealers suggested that the coins be removed from their flips for examination. So far, so good. The bad part began when watching me strugle to get the darn thing out of a 2x2 flip they would simply grab the thing and yank it out. I remember thinking a US dealer would slug me if I ever did that to one of his coins.

 

Interestingly enough the coin grabbers all seemed to use PVC flips. Might not be a bad reason to keep walking on by.

 

-JamminJ

[1jester]

JJ, I have seen some pictures on ebay from an American seller who was holding every coin with his grimy paws.

[syracusian]

Jester, I know what you're talking about and I certainly don't take it personally. I started slabbing my coins back in 98 , and one of the reasons was to protect them from myself ! Many dealers and collectors in Europe will mishandle coins (this can unfortunately be seen in many expensive and rare Victorian and early 20th century British proof sets) but saying that you have yet to meet somebody who does it the proper way, is probably an exaggeration. You can drop by Spink in London anytime for a demonstration .

 

No, I was referring to the difference of European and US grading standards , and why ANACS comes closer than others in my opinion, although I'll try to keep gmargulli's advice in my head until my next submission in a coin show.MS61-62 holders often contain good EF coins, but let's not forget that the US grades are directly related to the price of the coin, not really a technical grade , so although a coin might show the slightest signs of wear, its luster and general eye-appeal might increase its value to MS61-62 money. MS63 and above is guaranteed unc, but I've often paid very big (to massive) premiums for one of a kind (1833) coins that graded 65 and 66, so I'm really not buying the old grumpy dealer's hostile attitude to slabs and arguments that it's a US thing. TPG services threaten their long established dishonest practices and selling of overgraded coins.Too bad.

[1jester]

Thanks for the insightful post, Dimitri, and Touche!! It's probably due to my limited experience with high quality dealers that leads me to say that I've never seen anyone handle coins correctly.