PL and DMPL in the late 1800's....

[RockMyAmadeus]

So, we all know that Morgans have all sorts of PLs and DMPLs for nearly every date/mint of the series.

 

But my question is this:

 

Do PLs and DMPLs exist for other series? Are the DMPLs of, say, an 1877-S half? Or an 1875-S Trade $1?

 

Or are PLs and DMPLs the result of the extreme amount of coins minted (thus resulting in a constant rotation of brand new dies) combined with the salvation of many of these in mint bags over the intervening decades?

 

Is it only a phenomen of Morgans, or does it exist (albeit in far lower quantities) in other series?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here's a pic, so the thread has some spice.

 

[Matt Parsons]

 

I too wonder about the PL or DMPL qualities of any/all coin types. I love to collect any coin that has PL qualities but unfortunately most of them are way out of my budget range.

I still love to admire them, i just don't own to many. It is my plan that after i complete my Franklin set (probably never complete it as it costs to much to upgrade most years), i will start buying Morgans. I have 11 to date and i bought almost all of them over the past two months.

Great looking coin you own there!

Great thread, Matt

[JIM F.]

I own a PL $5 gold (NGC), a PL $10 gold (NGC), a PL Trade Dollar (NGC), and a PL Seated Liberty Dollar (ANACS).

 

Here's pics of the PL gold.

[Elbesaar]

 

I have never seen a DMPL Barber Half but have seen quite a few PL's.

 

 

All 1892-O Micro O's in high end AU thru MS have PL surfaces. The above

coin is in a PCGS 63 holder and the coin has nice morrors which don't show

off that well in this image.

 

Another PL coin in my set is my newer 1902-O Half - in a PCGS 64

holder [ now with a CAC sticker] - and the russet toning on the PL

surfaces is absolutely stunning:

[JIM F.]

That micro-O is in a class of its own! Nice.

[BillJones]

Or are PLs and DMPLs the result of the extreme amount of coins minted (thus resulting in a constant rotation of brand new dies) combined with the salvation of many of these in mint bags over the intervening decades?

 

The reasons you cite here are the reasons why Morgan Dollar PLs and DMPLs exist in such quantitites. Most series had similar coins when the new dies went on line, but given the lower mintages and the fact most of the coins were put into circulation, the number of PL coins is much lower, if they exist at all.

[RWB]

The somewhat mirror-like surface of "Proof-like" coins was an artifact of adjustment and/or repair of a die. Larger dies were under higher production pressures and commonly required more work to keep them in good condition.

 

The original surface of dies was smooth with very little “luster,” or very finely textured depending on the condition of the working hub.

 

There are PL pieces of most dates/mints of most denominations.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

The somewhat mirror-like surface of "Proof-like" coins was an artifact of adjustment and/or repair of a die. Larger dies were under higher production pressures and commonly required more work to keep them in good condition.

 

The original surface of dies was smooth with very little luster, or very finely textured depending on the condition of the working hub.

 

There are PL pieces of most dates/mints of most denominations.

 

Got an example like the 1881 Morgan shown above for another series?

 

I'd love to see a, say, 1898-O Barber Half in DMPL....

 

......if such a beast exists, or ever existed in the first place....

[RockMyAmadeus]

Or are PLs and DMPLs the result of the extreme amount of coins minted (thus resulting in a constant rotation of brand new dies) combined with the salvation of many of these in mint bags over the intervening decades?

 

The reasons you cite here are the reasons why Morgan Dollar PLs and DMPLs exist in such quantitites. Most series had similar coins when the new dies went on line, but given the lower mintages and the fact most of the coins were put into circulation, the number of PL coins is much lower, if they exist at all.

 

Thanks Bill...that's pretty much what I suspect, but I'd sure love to see DMPLs of other series....

[RUSS BEGA]

I just picked up a seated quarter that has is far more proof like than any of the proofs i have ever owned from the series!it's getting crossed over to an ngc holder to get the PL next month (I hope)

[RWB]

If dies did not need repair or adjustment, there might be no PLs of a particular date/mint.

[physics-fan3.14]

Yes, there are indeed many PLs of most series, with select few having DMPL. I would suggest you search the Heritage archives for many stunning examples. I am attempting to build a prooflike type set, which will be a very long term project due to the high cost of many of these pieces.

 

Of particular note are prooflike Seated Liberty coinage. These are actually somewhat available. DMPLs exist, and are stunningly beautiful.

[michael]

late 1800's

 

morgans in pl and dmpl common as dirt

 

trade dollars not scarce but not common somewhere in between

 

some smaller seated silver comes pl but scarce

 

pl liberty head gold coins quarter eagle to double eagle come pl but sort of scarce

 

some pl early 20th century double eagles are available if you search 1904 comes to mind

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I just picked up a seated quarter that has is far more proof like than any of the proofs i have ever owned from the series!it's getting crossed over to an ngc holder to get the PL next month (I hope)

For silver, hands down, the business-strike quarters and half-dollars of 1879 - 1890 are the most prooflike coins one could ever hope to find. I contend that many of the prooflike commercial pieces are nicer than their proof counterparts! This is based on having seen literally hundreds of them in both formats.

 

Another contender for "most prooflike" sub-series is the run of low-mintage business-strike gold dollars from about 1876 on. Here again, some examples of the coins from the late 1880s are unbelievable, and look better than proofs.

 

And finally, there are some low-mintage three-dollar gold coins that always seem to look like proofs.

[michael]

For silver, hands down, the business-strike quarters and half-dollars of 1879 - 1890 are the most prooflike coins one could ever hope to find. I contend that many of the prooflike commercial pieces are nicer than their proof counterparts! This is based on having seen literally hundreds of them in both formats.

 

 

totally forgot about those and yes they are always available........ many times i cant tell the difference between a really strong pl and a proof of the same date quarters and halves late 1880's and as bill says that in many cases the pl business strikes are better made quality then their same dated proof counterparts

 

go figure

 

and of course with the super low business strike mintages spectulators saved them in quantity

[messydesk]

Most of the 1830s-1910s designs (and "Rochelle, Rochelle" halves) can be found with PL or nearly PL surfaces, although not necessarily easily. Liberty gold is your best bet for finding PL non-Morgans. Copper-nickel coinage (3c, 5c) is probably your worst.

[coinman1794]

So, we all know that Morgans have all sorts of PLs and DMPLs for nearly every date/mint of the series.

 

But my question is this:

 

Do PLs and DMPLs exist for other series? Are the DMPLs of, say, an 1877-S half? Or an 1875-S Trade $1?

 

Or are PLs and DMPLs the result of the extreme amount of coins minted (thus resulting in a constant rotation of brand new dies) combined with the salvation of many of these in mint bags over the intervening decades?

 

Is it only a phenomen of Morgans, or does it exist (albeit in far lower quantities) in other series?

 

I'm surprised how few people are aware of, and understand the concept of, Prooflike luster. MANY other coin types, coins in virtually every series in fact, can be found in PL. Granted, some are very rare. Many coins in the Seated series, especially into the 1870s and 1880s, are known to exist in PL, not just Morgan Dollars. I have handled PL world coins several hundred years old.

 

Prooflike coins are usually the first coins struck from fresh dies. Most Morgan Dollar PL coins and Seated examples tend to fall into this category. Another group of PL coins are the result of heavy die polishing to remove and/or repair die damage. These usually have heavy die polish that makes them look quite different than the former type.

 

There are also PL coins that are the result of retired Proof dies pressed into service to strike circulating coins. These are the Type B Washington Quarters, Type 2 Franklins, and many early US and colonial era world coins that are found in PL.

 

I have always found it odd that mints don't care to regulate the finish on most business strike coinage. Nevertheless, they generally do not, and PL coins continue to be produced in the modern age.

 

[RWB]

Prooflike coins are usually the first coins struck from fresh dies.

Nope. Only when the die had to be adjusted for radius before initial use.

[James_OldeTowne]

I'm surprised how few people are aware of, and understand the concept of, Prooflike luster. MANY other coin types, coins in virtually every series in fact, can be found in PL. Granted, some are very rare. Many coins in the Seated series, especially into the 1870s and 1880s, are known to exist in PL, not just Morgan Dollars. I have handled PL world coins several hundred years old.

Off the top of my head, series in which I NEVER see prooflike coins include: Standing Liberty quarters, buffalo nickels, and Indian gold (all three series). Prooflike peace dollars seem to be exceedingly rare, but I once owned one that was borderline PL (not so designated) in an NGC MS-66 holder. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a prooflike Saint firsthand, although one would think those do exist.

[RWB]

None of the 1916-21 designs were suitable for mechanical repair - they did not have a uniform radius of curvature. That is one of the reasons poof set manufacture was halted in 1916.

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm surprised how few people are aware of, and understand the concept of, Prooflike luster. MANY other coin types, coins in virtually every series in fact, can be found in PL. Granted, some are very rare. Many coins in the Seated series, especially into the 1870s and 1880s, are known to exist in PL, not just Morgan Dollars. I have handled PL world coins several hundred years old.

Off the top of my head, series in which I NEVER see prooflike coins include: Standing Liberty quarters, buffalo nickels, and Indian gold (all three series). Prooflike peace dollars seem to be exceedingly rare, but I once owned one that was borderline PL (not so designated) in an NGC MS-66 holder. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a prooflike Saint firsthand, although one would think those do exist.

 

There was an article I recall seeing about the lone PL Saint graded - it was fantastic. I have seen semi-almost-pl Buffernicks, but I have never seen PL Indians.

[physics-fan3.14]

Prooflike coins are usually the first coins struck from fresh dies.

Nope. Only when the die had to be adjusted for radius before initial use.

 

Roger, could you please explain this more. As you know, I'm very interested in all aspects of PL, and am curious as to what you mean.

[comicdonna]

Prooflike coins are usually the first coins struck from fresh dies.

Nope. Only when the die had to be adjusted for radius before initial use.

 

Roger, could you please explain this more. As you know, I'm very interested in all aspects of PL, and am curious as to what you mean.

Quoted by EZ_E in the glossary section of this forum:

 

"the dies that struck the DMPL coins were prepared and polished in a similar manner to the Morgan Dollar dies, which included a step called "basining" the dies. Basining was a process that was done to each individual die just before inserting it into the coin press, and involved machining the die face to a slight concavity while applying a very fine die polish. Sometimes these basined dies were buffed afterwards, resulting in an even deeper mirror. Unfortunately, the mirror effect only lasted for the first few thousand strikes, degrading slowly to the point where the struck coins were no longer even mirror-like enough to be SPL."

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Great responses in this thread! Yay!

 

So, does anyone have any DMPLs to demonstrate?

[physics-fan3.14]

Great responses in this thread! Yay!

 

So, does anyone have any DMPLs to demonstrate?

 

The only DMPL I own is a Sacagawea, believe it or not.

 

[DWLange]

Roger, could you please explain this more. As you know, I'm very interested in all aspects of PL, and am curious as to what you mean.

 

While Roger is putting together another informative message, I'll attach a link to a column I wrote a few years on the subject of die radius.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=12

[coinman1794]

I'm surprised how few people are aware of, and understand the concept of, Prooflike luster. MANY other coin types, coins in virtually every series in fact, can be found in PL. Granted, some are very rare. Many coins in the Seated series, especially into the 1870s and 1880s, are known to exist in PL, not just Morgan Dollars. I have handled PL world coins several hundred years old.

Off the top of my head, series in which I NEVER see prooflike coins include: Standing Liberty quarters, buffalo nickels, and Indian gold (all three series). Prooflike peace dollars seem to be exceedingly rare, but I once owned one that was borderline PL (not so designated) in an NGC MS-66 holder. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a prooflike Saint firsthand, although one would think those do exist.

 

There are some PL Buffalo nickles; I think all are 1936. There were rumors about a couple PL Peace dollars that I read in a 2003 Heritage article.

[coinman1794]

Prooflike coins are usually the first coins struck from fresh dies.

Nope. Only when the die had to be adjusted for radius before initial use.

 

What I should have said was "freshly polished dies." I also made the point that not all dies were imparted with this finish.

 

[No+4Me]

This has been an interesting, informative discussion. I have a PL Trade Dollar: