toyonakataro Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Sorry for beginner's question. According to my limited knowledge, "cleaned" means " hairlines on the field whitch diminish the luster on the coin", but lightly cleaned coins still have some luster, right? I have some coins(mint state) lightly hairlined on the fields whitch are already in PCGS/NGC holders, but what does it mean? Does it mean these coins were lightly cleaned in the past, but still acceptable for grading service or are these hairlines came from improper storing? Is it possible to get a coin hairlined by mishandling? If so, is it possible to tell the difference if hairlines come from light cleaning or from mishandling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 This really comes down to the degree of hairlining or cleaning damage. Most coins, even superb gems, have some minor or near-inconsequential handling hairlines of some sort. As you drop in grade they become more obvious and disrupting to your eye. So IMO you can have hairlines on uncleaned coins. When I hear the word cleaned I usually associate some sort of degradation to the luster or as a minimum imparting some sort of unnatural look to the coin. The luster loses some of it's blast or frost. A simple one time dipping is in fact a cleaning of sorts and will still result in a slabbable coin. The services will grade this coin until the luster has been noticeably impaired. In almost all cases, cleaned coins will have excessive hairlines. There are exceptions to this rule where you will find coins that have all the luster stripped off them from excessive dipping or acidic treatment. roadrunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Maben Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 RESPONSE IN CAPS: Sorry for beginner's question. WHY BE SORRY? According to my limited knowledge, "cleaned" means " hairlines on the field CAN BE ANYWHERE NOT JUST IN THE FIELDS whitch diminish the luster on the coin", but lightly cleaned coins still have some luster, right? THEY SHOULD HAVE LOTS OF LUSTER, UNLESS OF COURSE IF THEY ARE HEAVILY TONED, IN WHICH CASE IT WILL BE HIDDEN I have some coins(mint state) lightly hairlined on the fields whitch are already in PCGS/NGC holders, but what does it mean? Does it mean these coins were lightly cleaned in the past, but still acceptable for grading service or are these hairlines came from improper storing? HAIRLINES CAN RESULT FROM IMPROPER HANDLING, BUT SHOULD NOT RESULT FROM IMPROPER STORAGE. MOST LIKELY, THE HAIRLINES WERE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THE COINS WERE GRADED AND THEY WERE NOT SEVERE ENOUGH TO RESULT IN A "NO GRADE" Is it possible to get a coin hairlined by mishandling? CERTAINLY If so, is it possible to tell the difference if hairlines come from light cleaning or from mishandling? HAIRLINES ARE HAIRLINES. YOU CAN SPECULATE AND PERHAPS EVEN MAKE AN EDUCATED GUESS, BUT NO WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyonakataro Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 Thanks roadrunner. But I once had a very lusterous half dime with SOME hairlines on the obverse field whitch was net graded by ANACS for cleaning and I also had a lusterous half doller with somewhat odd look(too shiny) and MANY hairlines whitch was graded MS60 by ANACS and the half doller wasn't net graded. Do you think I (or ANACS) have missed something on those coins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyonakataro Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 Thanks JMaben Seems like your reply was posted while I was typing above. I'm very slow in typing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooly Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Die polish always confuses newbies with "looks like it's been cleaned". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithdagen Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Die polish can be easier to spot because it mimics hairlines, but is usually in one spot, and usually in long, straight lines. Hairlines caused by cleaning seem to go in multiple directions and are usually all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 In my opinion coins graded in the 60-62 range tend to be cleaned. This is the realm of "problem" mint state coins. Either they are graded that for excessive marks, poor luster (cleaned or worn off), or below average eye appeal. I have to think that most coins in this range have been cleaned at one time. Not all, but probably most. Some could be there because of poor striking characteristics or flat luster from years of toning and chemical attack. Hence that MS60 coin being graded is no indication the coin was not cleaned. The service just felt it was deserving of a holder. Many holdered coins have been cleaned and are "market acceptable." Most bust dollars have been cleaned (hairlines) over the years but market acceptance for them is that they are ok if not harshly cleaned. A Barber half dollar for example can only show minor abuse before being "bagged." Whether imparted by cleaning or by mishandling, the hairlines detract from the value the same way. And what gets through the services today may not make it throug the next day! roadrunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVillageProwler Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Die polish can be easier to spot because it mimics hairlines, but is usually in one spot This is probably true, but don't be surprised to find certain dates/mints in certain series to have die polish lines that cover most of the available field space of a die. Notable examples in the Seated Dollar series: 1842, 1845, 1860-65. (They actually exist on more dates, but you'll be hard pressed to find examples of this because they're best noticed on UNC's, and UNC Seated Dollars are rare as heck!) EVP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVillageProwler Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 And what gets through the services today may not make it throug the next day! And, what gets BB'ed today may make it the next time! EVP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyonakataro Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 And what gets through the services today may not make it throug the next day! And, what gets BB'ed today may make it the next time! So it will be very hard for a novice like me to learn the borderline where grading service accept hairlines. I'll stick with already holdered coins. Thanks for replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillJones Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 No, hairlines do not aways mean that a coin has been cleaned. Hairlines can result from several sources. In the 19th century many collectors stored their coins in velvet lined trays. As the coins slid over the velvet tiny scratches or hairlines could result. Hairlines can also result for envelope friction and album slide marks. When album slide marks are obvious, the grade and value of the coin is lowered. Others are mint caused. several previous posts mentioned die polishing, which can look like hairlines until the lines are examined with a strong glass. If the line are RAISED, they are die polishing marks and not hairlines. Finally there are lint marks. These result in dust or threads are on the dies when the coins are stuck. Some 19th century Proof coins display this. The attached picture shows an 1895 Proof quarter with a lint mark in front of Ms. Liberty's eye. This coin has never been dipped and actually has attractive Proof surfaces. I just did not catch it at the right angle so it looks cloudy. PCGS graded it PR-63 because of the lint mark and a couple of other hairlines that were caused by mishandling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prooflike Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 This was an interesting thread. The one thing to remember, that grading is a judgement call. Are the hairlines/luster impairment enough to bag for cleaning or can the coin slide into a holder, if in a holder AU58 or MS60? MS61? The only way to get better at this "judgement call" is through experience. There is no resource that will define in black and white what the coin will grade or bodybag. Slabbing is always a shoot, but your chances of success go up with more knowledge and experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
