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ANACS crackouts/crossovers to NGC - guess the grades

Started by Hard Times,

116 posts in this topic

Hard Times

Hard Times

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One person graded it MS61, that be Schatzy. And, again, for the 4th time, HE IS RIGHT!!!!

(worship)

 

Oh the pain, I lost a grade in the crossover. :mad:

 

Is it because of the weak strike? Or, because I told them the minimum I would accept is a 61 and did not crack it out? We will never know. Interestingly, on the reverse within the shield, there is a dark spot in the new slab, the coin has evolved since I took the pic in the ANACS slab. Is it possible that cost me a point?

 

Tomorrow's specimen will have an interesting story, stay tuned.....

 

1858halfNGCMS61comp.jpg

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Mark T

Mark T

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Price difference is minimal , most of the time you will get a better resale in the NGC holder over an ANACS holder . I had a coin downgraded from Au 55 to Au 50 from a Blue ANACS to a PCGS holder . CAC certified it in the PCGS Au 50 holder, it was over graded as AU 55. I paid an Au 50 price for it and listed Au 50 as a minimum grade for the cross when I sent it in the original ANACS holder.

You might have lost a point but you basically had a wash value wise.

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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Mark,

Thanks for the insight. Maybe I should try to get the green bean, I just don't see this in a 61 holder unless Schatzy is correct that they took into account some strike weakness or that spot in the shield made it drop a point.....

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Mark T

Mark T

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Mark,

Thanks for the insight. Maybe I should try to get the green bean, I just don't see this in a 61 holder unless Schatzy is correct that they took into account some strike weakness or that spot in the shield made it drop a point.....

 

I send all my coins to CAC .

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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Well thanks L1ncolnF4n. Here is today's offering. This is not an ANACS crackout, but a NGC crackout. I decided that this quarter eagle was too dipped out and aimed to 'improve' its tone by putting it into an old Wayte Raymond mercury dime holder and let it sit for a span, under mild heat and humidity that tejas can have. These albums are legendary because of the S content in the paper that will react with Cu and Ag to create the nice colored toning known as album toning. Normally it takes years to decades. Well, once I saw that my blanched out quarter eagle was toning, I attempted to 'speed up' the process by putting a 40 watt halogen very close to the album one evening. About 15 minutes later, my wife said 'I smell burning'. After some searching the house, I realized 'oh no, the album!' Sure enough, I raced into the room where my toning experiment was going on only to find the album charred and melted onto the quarter eagle. Those 40W halogen floods are hot! Okay I thought, this is a job for NCS, so I put the quarter eagle, which was covered by melted black paper residue, in a flip and sent it off. I did not request grading by NGC but instead wanted to see what they could do with it first. They did a remarkable job! So what you see first below is the pre-melting event specimen plus its NGC label. Below is the coin in its new NGC holder without the label. Note the color improvement, but it also brought out a few copper spots which I don't mind. Note a few black specs where NCS did not quite get off the melted Raymond album paper.

 

So what is the new NGC grade? Numeric? If so, lower, higher, or the same? Did it get a details grade instead? I resubmitted to NGC at FUN with the others shown in this thread, about 5 months after receiving it back from NCS, so NGC had no way of knowing what grade they gave it a few years ago. Brian Silliman certainly enjoyed this story and noted this would have been a good NCS before and after pic for their site. I did not take a pic of it covered in black goo, I wonder if NCS did?

 

 

Pre-conservation:

 

1854-O25dNGCAU53comp.jpg

 

After conservation:

 

1854-O25d2ndcomp.jpg

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Mark T

Mark T

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HT, my guess of the grade will be the same as Jaime's. :roflmao:

 

Chris

 

And my grade guess is the same as Chris :/

 

I like the look of the pre conserved coin best .

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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I think that NGC kept it the same at AU53, I don't see any reason the coin would upgrade.

 

It's about time, Jaime! I was waiting to see if you agreed with me. :roflmao:

 

Chris

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Schatzy

Schatzy

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I think that NGC kept it the same at AU53, I don't see any reason the coin would upgrade.

 

It's about time, Jaime! I was waiting to see if you agreed with me. :roflmao:

 

Chris

-------i-m-with-stupid-0101.gif

Sorry, I was out working hard!!

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Schatzy

Schatzy

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I really don't like that at AU, and I think it got an XF-45. It looks worn to me, but maybe I just don't know the series well enough. Don't think it got a details.

 

Gold is very hard to grade IMO. I really don't think they knocked it down to XF-45 but I could see the coin getting AU50 but I think it graded AU53 again. 2c

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coinman23885-migration

coinman23885-migration

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When rereading the posts, I see that he called them copper spots. Why would a copper spot arise so quickly without warning? This isn't a minor spot; it's severe enough that I would have not expected to see such a radical change. Is it possible that it is something else?

 

I apologize in advance if these question seem a bit naive - I've never purchased a gold coin and/or had a copper spot subsequently develop.

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

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I apologize in advance if these question seem a bit naive - I've never purchased a gold coin and/or had a copper spot subsequently develop.

 

He mentioned that he heated it - that could certainly have aided in some copper spots appearing.

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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First, Schatzy, are you a grader for NGC? Come on, tell us the truth. Were you in the grading room when these coins went through last month????(worship)

 

Second, yes the copper spots are a result of accelerated toning. If you do a survey of gold, you will see that some dates and types have these on a regular basis. This is a result of poorly mixed alloy. Also, when a gold coin typical of the alloy used in US planchets, that are then over dipped, they have the color you see in the original posting for this specimen. Unlike overdipped silver, you retain a strong flashy luster but you get a whiter coin, as I suppose Cu is being preferentially removed from the surfaces. I did not know this at the time I purchased it, but I have been educated about this since - paid my tuition you might say. The oranger color of the accelerated retoned post-conservation photos, is more typical for this issue according to Winter - more orange gold in color. Of course the cost was bringing out the copper spots for the poorly mixed alloy.

 

Third, the strike of the 1854-O quarter will vary greatly. For grading it, assuming no points are taken off for strike quality, the grader has to know this to assess the grade. For a well struck coin, I agree that this specimen should be XF. For one of these with weak strike in the centers such as this one, then NGC has given the same grade years apart and recognized that strike can very for this year, mint, and type. This appears to be Variety 2 of Winter, which is mostly seen with weak center strike, and the graders had to know this to get their grade correct. I find this to be impressive consistency.

 

Fourth, what is distinctive is that this specimen was struck from strongly rusted dies - see the rust roughness in the surfaces along the edges in particular. Apparently NO dies rusted quickly in the heat and humidity. This is why I liked this coin, informative, and I like the color now, even with copper spots than I did its washed out color from over dipping. Retoning worked fairly well by reacting the specimen with Raymond S. In a perfect world, I would have a century to let it happen more naturally, but I did not. Lesson learned, it has helped me learn how to judge surfaces on gold specimens.

 

1854-O25d2ndNGCAU53comp.jpg

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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First, Schatzy, are you a grader for NGC? Come on, tell us the truth. Were you in the grading room when these coins went through last month????(worship)

 

Second, yes the copper spots are a result of accelerated toning. If you do a survey of gold, you will see that some dates and types have these on a regular basis. This is a result of poorly mixed alloy. Also, when a gold coin typical of the alloy used in US planchets, that are then over dipped, they have the color you see in the original posting for this specimen. Unlike overdipped silver, you retain a strong flashy luster but you get a whiter coin, as I suppose Cu is being preferentially removed from the surfaces. I did not know this at the time I purchased it, but I have been educated about this since - paid my tuition you might say. The oranger color of the accelerated retoned post-conservation photos, is more typical for this issue according to Winter - more orange gold in color. Of course the cost was bringing out the copper spots for the poorly mixed alloy.

 

Third, the strike of the 1854-O quarter will vary greatly. For grading it, assuming no points are taken off for strike quality, the grader has to know this to assess the grade. For a well struck coin, I agree that this specimen should be XF. For one of these with weak strike in the centers such as this one, then NGC has given the same grade years apart and recognized that strike can very for this year, mint, and type. This appears to be Variety 2 of Winter, which is mostly seen with weak center strike, and the graders had to know this to get their grade correct. I find this to be impressive consistency.

 

Fourth, what is distinctive is that this specimen was struck from strongly rusted dies - see the rust roughness in the surfaces along the edges in particular. Apparently NO dies rusted quickly in the heat and humidity. This is why I liked this coin, informative, and I like the color now, even with copper spots than I did its washed out color from over dipping. Retoning worked fairly well by reacting the specimen with Raymond S. In a perfect world, I would have a century to let it happen more naturally, but I did not. Lesson learned, it has helped me learn how to judge surfaces on gold specimens.

 

1854-O25d2ndNGCAU53comp.jpg

 

HT, I want you to do exactly as I say.

 

1) place the cursor on top of either one of the images

2) right click your mouse

3)scroll down to the bottom and left click on "Properties"

 

Chris

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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MunkyMan is right, you still would not know the grade of the regraded slab until I show it, except for the last one where I posted the new pics without a grade visible, and I think everyone still did their evaluation as they saw it.....

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

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MunkyMan is right, you still would not know the grade of the regraded slab until I show it, except for the last one where I posted the new pics without a grade visible, and I think everyone still did their evaluation as they saw it.....

 

Oops! I used the wrong image. Sorry!

 

Chris

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L1ncolnF4n

L1ncolnF4n

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First, Schatzy, are you a grader for NGC? Come on, tell us the truth. Were you in the grading room when these coins went through last month????(worship)

 

Second, yes the copper spots are a result of accelerated toning. If you do a survey of gold, you will see that some dates and types have these on a regular basis. This is a result of poorly mixed alloy. Also, when a gold coin typical of the alloy used in US planchets, that are then over dipped, they have the color you see in the original posting for this specimen. Unlike overdipped silver, you retain a strong flashy luster but you get a whiter coin, as I suppose Cu is being preferentially removed from the surfaces. I did not know this at the time I purchased it, but I have been educated about this since - paid my tuition you might say. The oranger color of the accelerated retoned post-conservation photos, is more typical for this issue according to Winter - more orange gold in color. Of course the cost was bringing out the copper spots for the poorly mixed alloy.

 

Third, the strike of the 1854-O quarter will vary greatly. For grading it, assuming no points are taken off for strike quality, the grader has to know this to assess the grade. For a well struck coin, I agree that this specimen should be XF. For one of these with weak strike in the centers such as this one, then NGC has given the same grade years apart and recognized that strike can very for this year, mint, and type. This appears to be Variety 2 of Winter, which is mostly seen with weak center strike, and the graders had to know this to get their grade correct. I find this to be impressive consistency.

 

Fourth, what is distinctive is that this specimen was struck from strongly rusted dies - see the rust roughness in the surfaces along the edges in particular. Apparently NO dies rusted quickly in the heat and humidity. This is why I liked this coin, informative, and I like the color now, even with copper spots than I did its washed out color from over dipping. Retoning worked fairly well by reacting the specimen with Raymond S. In a perfect world, I would have a century to let it happen more naturally, but I did not. Lesson learned, it has helped me learn how to judge surfaces on gold specimens.

 

1854-O25d2ndNGCAU53comp.jpg

 

Like I said in my evaluation, a generally weak strike and bad dies would account for my seeing wear. I still think it feels a bit high at AU-53 but I could understand the AU.

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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L1ncolnF4n,

That is why I am doing this thread and encouraging grades and opinions from everyone, it is good to see the range of perspectives from all who are interested, after all, grading is not a strict science. The last example was very interesting to me because however NGC is deciding to grade these, they are demonstrating remarkable consistency over years between their evaluations. That gives me more confidence in specimens I see in their holders. What is important, it to try to understand how they come by their grading opinions. Each series, date, mintmark, variety, etc. they they grade has to be viewed with tremendous knowledge and experience. I believe there are cases to be made to give this specimen a grade anywhere from XF45 to AU53, but apparently NGC has taken into account the rusted dies and knowledge of weak strike for this date and mintmark, that explains to me the grades I see for many uber-weak striked quarter eagles from the branchmints getting grades that I thought were too high.

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