If NGC was more like VAMWorld.............

[cpm9ball]

..........oh, what a mess they would have!

 

I'm a life member of the SSDC, and I like VAM's. When I first began collecting them six years ago, I discovered the VAWWorld site and found it to be a good source for information on the varieties. Now, however, I don't know. You see, anyone who is registered there can go into the site and add their photos and comments to a listing. I realize that trying to maintain up-to-date information on the 3000+ varieties can be an enormous and full-time job. I also realize that those who post their photos and comments mean well, but there is a limit to what should be considered acceptable. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that any of the administrators on that site have any control about what should and shouldn't be changed or updated.

 

I'll be the first to admit that my photographic skills leave a lot to be desired, but some of the photos I've seen posted there are so bad that a two-year old's fingerpainting looks like a Degas or Renoir in comparison. Most of you have heard the adage, "Too many cooks spoil the broth." That seems to be what is happening over there. Everyone wants to immortalize themselves in the eyes of the other members. Some of them have the misguided belief that they are actually helping, when in the long run, they are diminishing the integrity of the site.

 

I remember the coin that got me started collecting VAM's. It was an 1899-O which had a die crack that made a complete 360 degree circle along the perimeter of the reverse. I thought it was cool, but I soon learned that die cracks were very common to the Morgan series and they did not warrant attribution, unless of course, they were severe like the 1888-O "Scarface". Over at VAMWorld, I just read a post from a member about an 1880 that was "discovered" not too long ago. It has a die crack extending from the rim into the "0" of the date. It's probably no more than 1/64th of an inch wide and 1/8th of an inch long. What is going on here? I had a suspicion that changes were in the offing when it was announced that an entire series of VAM's were being designated for the 1921 Morgans. They were nicknamed "Scribbles". Scribbles, huh? Yeah, right! They are nothing more than die polishing scratches.

 

In 2006, I found an 1882-CC which, after submitting it to Leroy Van Allen, I learned was a VAM-. It had only been discovered a few months prior. It had severe clashing and counterclashing on a rotated die. Just recently, I revisited that listing only to discover that photos inserted by some other member, while similar, did not show its most important characteristics. Out of curiosity, I checked the listing for the VAM-2D and sure enough, there it was. The only problem was that the listing was based on the inclusion of a couple of obverse gouges (I believe that they are actually nothing more than strikethroughs). Whoever inserted the photos failed to acknowledge that this was most likely a later die state and not all VAM-2D's might have these gouges. The photo of the most important aspect, the counterclash on a rotated die, was captioned, "Lots of clashing." Period! Other photos citing what may or may not be used as markers were so underexposed that it was impossible to distinguish any of the characteristics.

 

Just yesterday, I got into a discussion with another member about an 1884-CC. His thread was asking for help because he was trying to determine if his coin was a VAM-10, but the photos were misleading. The only comment from anyone else was that it may be a VAM-9. While the title of the listing, "Dash under the 2nd "8", made it seem plausible that it was a VAM-9, the only photo available showed the date and it didn't even have a dash under the "8". The listing for the VAM-10 which pertains to a "Far Date" shows photos of all of the characteristics found on the so-called VAM-9 specimen (I have one too) except for the "Dashed 8". So, what is it? Is the VAM-9 a later die state of the VAM-10? You can't tell by the photos and comments. I do know that I can tell if the information had been made available by Leroy Van Allen, himself, because he uses distinctive microphotographs and bold text. Not in this case! It had to be one of the VAMWorld members who posted this information.

 

I could go on and on citing instances where members have inserted bad and/or misleading photographs and comments that tend to suit their own purposes without any thought of the overall picture, but you are probably already getting bored with my rant.

 

I've read numerous negative comments over there about the fact that NGC will not certify anything more than the "Top 100" and "Hot 50" VAM's. To be perfectly honest with you, I have wondered the same thing in years past, and I have repeatedly raised that question at previous NGC Luncheons at FUN. Now, I'll have to admit that their policy is a good one. What is so important about "Scribbles"? What is so important about coins struck on rusted dies? How can die scratches, strikethroughs and cracks become important enough to warrant attribution when all they are really good for is determining a particular die state?

 

Unfortunately, for the "powers that be" on the VAMWorld site, if they don't start placing more restrictions on what information can and can't be included in the descriptions, it will become a Frankenstein monster gone berserk.

 

You may be wondering why I'm posting this, here, rather than on the VAMWorld site. All I can say is that I've raised questions in the recent past, and they have been largely ignored. Besides, I don't want to be known as the first life member of the SSDC to be banished over there.

 

Chris

[DWLange]

Chris,

 

I appreciate your comments. You've summed up the problem that we've had with adding more VAM varieties to the list of ones we recognize. There's a tendency among the more enthusiastic VAMmers to herald every miniscule irregularity in a die as something of great significance, a phenomenon I've rarely observed in other areas of variety collecting.

 

We had a tough decision to make regarding the recently-published Hit List 40 VAM reference. While there may be one or two fun varieties in this latest VAM extract, by and large the listings are trivial by any measure other than that of the most ardent VAMmers. For that reason, NGC opted not to add this latest book to its variety recognition program.

 

We will remain open minded about adding more varieties, but we have to protect the value and integrity of our product, and implying added value where none exists won't achieve that.

[cpm9ball]

Thanks, David. That means a lot coming from you.

 

I would imagine that someone from VAMWorld will probably read this, and I will be subject to much criticism. That's okay! I stand by what I have stated, and I appreciate all of the invaluable services and assistance that NGC has given us.

 

Chris

[Jim Beam]

What/Who is the SSDC?

[MunkyMan95]

What/Who is the SSDC?

Society for Silver Dollar collectors, I believe.

[cpm9ball]

What/Who is the SSDC?

 

 

Here it is.

 

http://ssdcvams.com/

[RWB]

In my opinion, the above are reasonable comments. They make sense from both business and general collecting aspects.

 

There are some die defects that are not in the VAM lists, yet are much more prominent than dozens of items on the lists.

 

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Thanks, Roger! I just wish that I could make them realize that, left unchecked, it could become the Exxon Valdez of the VAM-collecting world.

 

Chris

[Schatzy]

The whole reason that I never collected morgan dollars is because of all the varieties.

[cpm9ball]

The whole reason that I never collected morgan dollars is because of all the varieties.

 

You don't necessarily have to collect them by variety. Some of the DMPL's are knockouts as are some of the toners - rainbow, Tid-E-Bowl, end-roll, cats-eye, etc. I'm also having fun putting together specific year/mm sets of grades from 63-67. You can collect them any way that you want!

 

Chris

[Schatzy]

The whole reason that I never collected morgan dollars is because of all the varieties.

 

You don't necessarily have to collect them by variety. Some of the DMPL's are knockouts as are some of the toners - rainbow, Tid-E-Bowl, end-roll, cats-eye, etc. I'm also having fun putting together specific year/mm sets of grades from 63-67. You can collect them any way that you want!

 

Chris

 

Yeah......but I am complicated.....I would want 1 of each!!

 

Plus the morgans are to costly for me right now!!

[cpm9ball]

The whole reason that I never collected morgan dollars is because of all the varieties.

 

You don't necessarily have to collect them by variety. Some of the DMPL's are knockouts as are some of the toners - rainbow, Tid-E-Bowl, end-roll, cats-eye, etc. I'm also having fun putting together specific year/mm sets of grades from 63-67. You can collect them any way that you want!

 

Chris

 

Yeah......but I am complicated.....I would want 1 of each!! 3000+ x Market Price

 

 

Chris

[CHABSENTIA]

The whole reason that I never collected morgan dollars is because of all the varieties.

 

You dont have to collect the varieties. You can collect one for the year of issue such as any Morgan in the year. You can collect just one 1878 whether it is the 1878 8TF or the 1878 CC etc. You can collect just the PLs for each year or DMPLs or just the Vams or the ones without thr Vams. NGC does not attribute the vams unless you pay an extra fee so there are certified Morgans out there that have a Vam but it is not noted and you can loook for them etc.

 

I have a comlpete collection of the ASE in both Proof and Uncirculated but I only keep them up to date. I prefer the Morgans.